Goodbye, dream of Silkies... not kosher, sorry. :-(

[nok13]

hi,k im not so sure that u are correct. i (from israel) worked with two vets ,both orthodox practicing (one anglo and one french); the american vet has a brother who is an expert on kosher and 'minhag' (practice, not law, of what people can eat or not eat)... he wrote a scientific paper on salmon and scales for scientific american a few years ago...

from what i understand from him : 'mutar' (allowed to eat) any animal that is identified with the kosher requirements: goats etc (split hoof, chews cud) and for birds, it has to do with toes and also what is listed as 'asur' (forbidden) in the torah. the problem is that the translations of many animals are based on loose interpretations because several animals are listed but no one is sure what that animal really was in biblical times in israel (the rock hyrax vx hare vx rabbit is a good exampleof that )...

ostriches are 'asur'. pigeons are 'mutar'. howver, since jews were all around the world the various communities adapted to their surroundings and ate or forbid things accordingly so that in s.africa, jews will /can eat giraffes and wildebeests. morrocan jews can and will eat animals that european jews wont because the european community wasnt exposed to that particular species and therefore doesnt want to take chances in identification.
so this vet's brother did a complete program on wild animals that are kosher and able to be eaten. btw, caviar is 'asur', but roe from kosher fish are 'mutar'...

besides there is no injunction against raising non kosher animals as pets just as there is no problem feeding your pet non kosher foods except during passover when that is forbidden (all the cows and goats get kosher food in pesach so the milk is kosher for pesach passover). so do dogs and cats and chickens and also all other animals in petting zoos etc even though u wont eat them, to prevent 'infection' of non kosher for passover products in to a 'sterile' area/
i know of many litvak and other orthodox groups that raise rabbits even the animal is considered 'tema' (forbidden/not pure), as u are not eating it. the only animal that no one would grown touch or have pics of is the pig. also shrimps and things fall in to that category.

so u could raise your silkies just as pets, but not for eggs, or have 'goys' take the eggs w/o paying and without u telling them to come and take them...

hope that helps, i could always find the name of my vet's brother , he is here in israel , a brain surgeon or something along those lines but also a rabbi

bina
israel

 

[foothillsfiber]

I have also wondered about this as I keep the food laws. I read a book that gave the regulations so to speak about what is clean and not clean and the birds needed the gizzard as well as 3 forward facing toes and one backward facing toe, being silkies have the 2 backward facing I was in doubt. This is just from memory and mine isn't that good. I will look for the book and try to post what it says.

 

[foothillsfiber]

Thanks for this explanation.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

...

So, just wanted to post here just in case some Orthodox Jew is thinking about getting Silkies and reads this. It would be very disappointing to invest time and money, and to bond with these charming birds, only to find out later you have to get rid of your beloved Silkies. ...

Thank you for posting this great information. If we do get Silkies I will be sure to let any potential egg customers know they aren't kosher. Hmmmm, that begs the question: can people who keep kosher even buy eggs from backyard flocks?

Any hugs to you! That *is* a disappointment! Though Cochins are pretty cute.

 

[OldGuy43]

A fascinating thread. Thanks for starting it. Like most who have been reared in the Christian faith, I always thought that "keeping Kosher" just meant not eating pork. During my studies I have discovered this site:

Is a bird kosher?

Since I don't keep Silkies I can't perform the test. Perhaps one of you Silky fanatics can answer this question.

 

[nok13]

someone who 'keeps kosher' will probably only buy from others who keep kosher because it also means that u cant use thee milk or the eggs that a jew collected on the sabbath; in israel the problem is solved by having non jews work on the saturdays, because the torah also says u MUST take care of animals including milking to prevent injury or pain to the animal.collecting eggs doesnt fall in this category but there is always a solution...
also, it depends on how 'kosher' u are and if u are european/anglo or spheradi/oriental jewish because the halacha rules are the same but the 'minhagim' are different...

some folks just eat what is kosher i.e. not pig, not shrimp, not ostriches etc but dont have a problem with how the animal was reared, others do have a problem. trust me, israel every family has their own 'thing' ... btw, quails are kosher/
thought u all would like this..:
since i ran a petting zoo, i also had to know all the pertinent info for judaism as most of our clientle was either jewish or muslem...

"nder Jewish law, animals have some of the same rights as humans do. Animals rest on Shabbat, as humans do (Ex. 20:10). We are forbidden to muzzle an ox to prevent it from eating while it is working in the field (Deut. 25:4), just as we must allow human workers to eat from the produce they are harvesting (Deut. 23:25-26). Animals can partake of the produce from fields lying fallow during the sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11).
Several commandments demonstrate concern for the physical or psychological suffering of animals. We may not plow a field using animals of different species (Deut. 22:10), because this would be a hardship to the animals. We are required to relieve an animal of its burden, even if we do not like its owner, do not know its owner, or even if it is ownerless (Ex. 23:5; Deut. 22:4). We are not permitted to kill an animal in the same day as its young (Lev. 22:28), and are specifically commanded to send away a mother bird when taking the eggs (Deut 22:6-7), because of the psychological distress this would cause the animal. In fact, the Torah specifically says that a person who sends away the mother bird will be rewarded with long life, precisely the same reward that is given for honoring mother and father (Ex. 20:12; Deut. 5:16), and indeed for observing the whole Torah (Deut. 4:40). This should give some indication of the importance of this law.
We are permitted to violate Shabbat to a limited extent to rescue an animal in pain or at risk of death. For example, we can move them if they are in pain, move objects that we would not otherwise be permitted to touch to relieve their pain, we may give them medicine, and we may ask non-Jews to do things that would violate Shabbat to help a suffering animal.
In the Talmud, the rabbis further dictated that a person may not purchase an animal unless he has made provisions to feed it, and a person must feed his animals before he feeds himself (interpreting Deut. 11:15)."
and for pets:

Jewish law does not prohibit keeping pets, and indeed many observant Jews have dogs, cats or other household pets, though Jewish law does raise some complications for pet owners.
As with all animals, we are required to feed our pets before ourselves, and make arrangements for feeding our pets before we obtain them. Also, like all animals, household pets are entitled to Sabbath rest, thus you cannot have your dog retrieve the paper for you on Shabbat, etc.
Some sources consider pets are considered to be muktzeh, within the category of objects that cannot be handled on Shabbat. I haven't been able to get a clear idea of what exactly is and is not permitted with an animal on Shabbat. I have seen several sources say that walking a dog is permitted, but if an animal runs away on Shabbat, it is not permitted to trap the animal.
It is permissible to feed non-kosher food to pets, as long as you do not consume it yourself. This falls under the general rule that it is permissible to use products of non-kosher animals as long as you don't eat them; for example, it is permissible to use a toothpaste that contains non-kosher ingredients as long as the toothpaste is not fit for human consumption, and it is permissible to wear gloves made from pig suede. However, it is not permissible to derive any benefit from a mixture of meat and dairy; therefore, any food you feed your pet cannot contain both meat and dairy.
Similarly, during Pesach, there are rules for pets, but they are not as strict as for people. It is impermissible to have any chametz (leavened grain products) in your home, or to derive any benefit from chametz, thus you cannot use chametz to feed your pets
It is a violation of Jewish law to neuter a pet. The Torah prohibits castrating males of any species (Lev. 22:24). Although this law does not apply to neutering female pets, neutering of females is prohibited by general laws against tza'ar ba'alei chayim (causing suffering to animals). Please note that, while the law prohibits you from neutering your pet, it does not prohibit you from owning a pet that is already neutered.
It is a violation of the general prohibition against tza'ar ba'alei chayim to have your pet physically altered in any way without a genuine, legitimate need. For example, declawing cats and docking the ears or tails of dogs are forbidden. Again, there is no law against owning an animal in this condition, so you should look into adopting from a shelter if you want such an animal."


this is in general, for those that are interested.
bina

 

[OldGuy43]

I have always wondered, it there in provision in kashrut for cases of necessity?

 

[nok13]

depending on what u define neccisisty: pikuch nefesh (soul in danger) is about the only time u can overrule certain rules (pregnant woman go by ambulance if she or fetus is in stress/danger; to administer medications that require 'work' (electricity etc); food wise, no . there is always a way to find something that u can eat or else u fast, UNLESS it would could immediate danger to your health-- although people went to their deaths by stayig kosher on principle -- WWII is an example of this. however some people take it to extremes. i of course have seen all variations since most people here are jewish whether religious or not so there are varying degrees of keeping kosher from extreme to just eating food that is slaughtered kosher style or not mixing milk and meat...
there was an incident about two weeks ago when a religious girl drove to visit aunt and uncle, missed her exit, ended up hours away, shabbat was coming in (at sundown) so found a house with religious people, who took her in for the night. however she also didnt phone her parents in time so they called search and rescue so tons of people broke the shabbat to search for her when she wasnt in danger. the rabbis said she shoudl have sent a sms to her parents ahead of time to say she wouldnt arrive, or even in shabbat, rather then having lots of people breaking the shabbat (sabbath) to look for her.
the same with animals. if it is shabbat, and u havent fed your animal, there are still ways to allow it to eat w/o actually 'working' (openeing cans or feed bags.) in other words there are always ways to do certain activities within certain restrictions, including do vet work although i can tell u many stories of people who lost foals or litters because theyw waited until sabbath exited (sundown the saturday nite) to call a vet (if the vet is religious then there is always one that will be on call who can answer phones, or w/o walking distance . there is always a way)... so, for a minor cut, u dont call a vet or do vet work other then first aide, but if the animal is in danger of dying then u are in danger of 'tzar ba'ali haim' - cruelty to animals- and u have to give immediate medical attention to maintain life until such time as the rest of the medical situation can be taken care of.

obviously in teh states people have less experience but here in israel its a daily situation so even us secular folks know most of the restrictions, and are prepared also ahead of time since ost places are closed from friday afternoon until saturday evening. vet emergency calls and doctors are inundated on saturday evenings with calls for that reason as well as sunday when everything opens... all the problems wait until sunday morning...

besides, modern technology allows many gadgets and things to 'work' for u over shabbat w/o u having to turn on or off or cut or open things (from pre cut toilet paper to shabbat timer clocks and hot plates to timed medical drips to whatever).
on minor fast days u are still required to feed animals, nurse your baby , feed your children and work in your place of work. on the few major fast days /prayer days (yom kippur) u still have to feed and water your animals and milk cows/goats, administer medications and do other life saving activities. other then that, same as shabbat.
supposedly that is one of the things that differentiate us from animals is that we choose to do things like eat , they dont choose, they have the instinct and they are dependant on us for their needs. hence the laws.
the same goes for castration and spay/hysterectomy /overectomy in animals. on if it is medically neccessary (cancer or whatever) , not because the owner wants to do it even if it is for seeminly moral reasons (life of unwanted pups). there are other methods (lock in your females in heat, prevent male for getting ot the females, birth control pills/shots although that is under discussion always), the same btw for women (if they are religious/orthodox)-- but here the rabbi of the particular sect can intervene and decide the health AND/OR mental health of the mother/wife is at stake, so there are always ways.
hope that wasnt boring, a bit off topic but all connected... lots of info on the net in english although some of the ways of doing things are different here in israel as the entire country more or less works with these religious laws in mind (for good or bad...but thats a'nuther story )
bina

 

[OldGuy43]

Most enlightening. Thank you Nok13.

 

[Flock Leader]

Bina, thanks for your informative replies!

Just thought I would add, although it's really off topic, that one doesn't *have to* starve to death in order to eat kosher... Torah is given to us "to live by", not to die by... that is why many Jews outwardly became Christian during Inquisition, rather than stand up and say "no, I'm never converting". Of course many of those lost their Jewish identity over time but still...

Thankfully now we have an abundance of kosher food and freedom of religion, so no such dilemmas.