Gout? When is gone too far gone?

[Rethia]

This isn't a current issue, more looking into it for the future. Backstory is, I got four blue copper maran chicks and two were roos and two were hens. My friend and I have been building a flock together at her place since I can't have chickens on my property (City ordinance and HOA both ban them).

She has mostly layers and had switched to layer feed only (I thought they were getting an all-flock feed). The more mellow roo started getting picked on by the hens and we originally through that he was limping due to because someone had taken a nip out of his leg. By the time we figured out it was probably gout due to the layer feed, he was still eating and drinking and pooping some (but not normal poops) and refusing to move. The second rooster started showing the same symptoms about the time the hens started picking on him and so my friend culled both roos after a couple more days because they weren't improving.

My first question is, how soon do you need to catch gout before it's irreversible and the bird will just suffer and not recover? Was there anything we could have done if one was on day 1-2 of showing symptoms and the other was 5-6 days into symptoms? The more vigorous roo was just starting to chase hens to mount them and was 4-5 months old if their age makes any difference.

I just feel really bad because there wasn't anything I could do and they were the first two I ever named.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

The more vigorous roo was just starting to chase hens to mount them and was 4-5 months old if their age makes any difference.

At that age.. I would question the "gout" diagnosis and consider other possibilities.. like Marek's, malnutruition, internal parasites.. etc. Without getting a necropsy, it may be hard to know what was truly going on.

For what it's worth.. there is a genetic component to the whole gout issue.. some cockerels/roosters will eat layer feed their whole life and never experience that condition, while still living to a ripe age.

Does your friend not intend to keep any roosters, not care about what's in their best interest, or just uninformed? The two of you might want to agree about what is meant by "build a flock together".

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Rethia]

At that age.. I would question the "gout" diagnosis and consider other possibilities.. like Marek's, malnutruition, internal parasites.. etc. Without getting a necropsy, it may be hard to know what was truly going on.

For what it's worth.. there is a genetic component to the whole gout issue.. some cockerels/roosters will eat layer feed their whole life and never experience that condition, while still living to a ripe age.

Does your friend not intend to keep any roosters, not care about what's in their best interest, or just uninformed? The two of you might want to agree about what is meant by "build a flock together".

Sorry for your loss.

Originally didn't want to keep any roos, but does now.

It's hard because she's doing the day to day work whereas I'm 10-15 minutes away and can only go out there occasionally to help out with bigger projects. I'm helping out with feed and I'm also support if she needs it.

I think gout was her best guess. I didn't get to see the boys before they were culled, but it started with the hens picking on the less dominant smaller one and then he was limping and then eventually wouldn't move at all. She tried epsom salt baths and he was inside getting eggs and electrolytes. If was after a few days that the other roo, who was same age but bigger, started getting picked on and was then limping. About that point she thought it could be gour due to the trouble moving, but his comb was dark pinkish, maybe a little pale? No eye issues.

None of the hens were or are showing any symptoms of anything similar, it was just the two boys.

I was trying to find options to help with gout online and found some recommendations, but she figured that they hadn't improved any and they were in pain so...

Honestly, I'm also wondering if she jumped the gun after a week of symptomatic behavior, but either way it's already done and I'm just trying to prevent any repeat because I incubated eggs and I have one confirmed roo in the hatch and possibly two more out of eleven.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Honestly, I'm also wondering if she jumped the gun after a week of symptomatic behavior, but either way it's already done and I'm just trying to prevent any repeat because I incubated eggs and I have one confirmed roo in the hatch and possibly two more out of eleven.

Limping is often the first symptom of Marek's and may not be symptomatic in the whole flock.

If you have any others present with symptoms and decide to cull.. (refrigerate and) sending them in for necropsy *may* give you more answers. The following link has the contact information for the state poultry labs.. sometimes free or affordable to backyard keepers, depending on your state.

https://www.metzerfarms.com/poultry-labs.html

With some more reading/research (on my part).. it appears as though visceral gout, one of the two types may affect younger birds as well. You could always do your own necropsy to confirm that diagnosis, there are plenty of pictures online, though it might not tell you everything. The first link being a trusted resource and the second usually offers good information, both have pictures..

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...s-of-poultry/urate-deposition-gout-in-poultry

https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/gout-management-in-poultry