Gradual illness

[bobbie girl]

I wormed her a few days ago. I gave her some scrambled eggs earlier today, but just a few hours ago she stopped eating and drinking all together. I brought her inside, and now she's in the basement. She's not opening her eyes or showing any interest in the treats. I'm getting pretty worried.

Barbara--Sorry to hear about your chickens. If you're sure its Marek's you could maybe try Hypericum. It's not a sure cure but it's the only thing I've read about that might help.

 

[rebrascora]

So sorry to hear your girl has deteriorated. Will keep my fingers crossed that that scrambled egg and some warmth will work it's way into her system soon and she will start to pick up.

I have 3 showing symptoms of Mareks at the moment. One is a young cockerel who will probably be for the pot anyway and apart from a slight limp he's managing fine. Another is a little cream legbar pullet who is completely lame with her toes curled on that foot. She hops about on one foot and is reasonably mobile but has lost confidence within the flock and gets picked on as a result, so she lives in sick bay permanently as a pet but gets supervised outings to the lawn/dust bath when the weather is fine.... she is a sweetheart and I do love her. She went like that about 4 months ago and has got no better or worse despite various treatments. The third Marek victim is a CCL x RIR I bred in the summer. She is one of 2 of this breeding and I really love these girls as they have great personalities. She went lame for a few days 3 months ago and at one sage she way lying in the classic Mareks "splits" posture. I thought I would have to cull her, but a few days later she was completely right again and I couldn't even tell which one of the 2 had been ill. Sadly she went lame again a few days ago and I'm not so sure she will get better this time. From what I have read, the second episode is usually worse.

Thanks for the tip about St John's Wort (hypericum) but I'm treating her with turmeric and black pepper at the moment. She eats well so it's not difficult to get it into her. I'm treating my young horse with the same mixture for sarcoids, so I am keeping my fingers crossed for a good result for both. I've only had to put one down for Marek's so far and she had huge tumours. I have a mixed flock of 40+ birds so I'm learning that it's perhaps not as bad as some of the stuff you read about it, but still heart breaking when you lose one and very time consuming looking after those in sick bay.

 

[bobbie girl]

She has perked up a bit, which is good, but she's still immobile. Her legs do not seem to have gotten better or worse, which is rather strange...

I didn't know Mareks was such a common disease. Three birds at once! It gives me hope though that they can get better on their own. Are turmeric and black pepper good for treating Mareks?

 

[rebrascora]

Great to hear that she has perked up a bit. Let's hope that she has turned the corner.

As regards Mareks, unfortunately it is extremely contagious and pretty common, so having 3 at the same time.is not unusual in a home bred, mixed age flock. Most, if not all of my chickens will be infected, but only some will show symptoms and others will be carriers and some will hopefully develop resistance. There will also be a range of symptoms although particular strains seem to cause specific symptoms.... mine seem to present with initial lameness and clenching of the lame foot.

I read in a Poultry magazine that Mareks was one of the top 2 causes of death in chickens(apart from humans!) so that shows just how common it is.

If chicks are vaccinated at hatch and kept free of the virus for the first few weeks of life then that will help them cope better when they are exposed to it. Unfortunately I am not in a position to do that, so either I buy in older chicks that have been vaccinated or I breed my own chicks from those that are exposed to it and don't succumb. I believe that mixed breeds are more likely to be resistant to it and out of my 7 barnyard mix pullet chicks from last summer, only one went down with it and the others are all laying well and looking strong and healthy, so I'm hopeful that they are past the stage of getting it.

Anyway, I digress. As regards Turmeric and black pepper (must be freshly ground as the active ingredient is a volatile oil within the peppercorn.... I keep a pepper mill in my feed room and just give it a few turns each day into the feed).... there is no research on it's efficacy that I am aware of but it is reported to have been very effective in shrinking and even eliminating sarcoids (cutaneous and sub cutaneous tumours) in some horses. I thought that since I was already using it on my mare, I would try it on my hen too, but when I did some research, it turns out other people were already trying it on their hens with Mareks....which is also a tumour developing disease. It's still relatively early days for my hen and horse.... 3-6months of use is the sort of time scale for horses. The great thing is that for a hen it is relatively inexpensive and can't really hurt as far as I am aware and both hen and horse are happy to eat it mixed into some feed, so it's easy to dispense.
The problem with Marek's is that it can appear to get better on it's own and the chicken recover whether it is treated or not, so really difficult to assess whether the turmeric remedy has worked. I'm just giving it a shot in the hope that it may help.

Keeping my fingers crossed that your girl doesn't have Mareks and is back to her usual self soon.

Regards

Barbara

 

[bobbie girl]

Have your chickens shown any progress? That's a clever idea to use Turmeric! Tumors are probably some of the more life-threatening symptoms of Mareks, so if it can deal with that hopefully it can save your chickens.
Violet is still the same. We are planning to take her to the vet on Monday. I was going to treat her with some Hypericum but I'm worried it would cover her symptoms or something when we go to the vet. If Mareks is so common though, I'll definitely have to try treating her soon. Do you know how long it would normally take for symptoms to go away on their own?

 

[rebrascora]

Hi. No real progress but no deterioration either since I started treating her. She is wolfing her turmeric feed down which makes things easy but it's still only just a week since I started. Last time she went lame 3 months ago, it was less than a week. She limped for a couple of days and then the next day she was lying doing the splits in classic Marek's posture, but a couple of days after that she was completely normal and I couldn't tell if it was her or her sister that had been ill. This time it is going on for longer and whilst she is not lying in the splits position, she is preferring to lie down in a nest. She can stand for short periods if I pressure her to get up but as stress increases the symptoms, I am leaving her alone in a dark, quiet corner of the infirmary to rest as much as possible.
The other one is hopping around in the infirmary like she is the queen in her palace, demanding that I wait on her hand and foot as soon as she sees me.... she uses the "egg song" to get my attention for some strange reason! My infirmary/brooder is actually an old sideboard which is inside a stable that I use as a hen house, so they can be safe and still see and be part of the flock without being bullied. I am not concerned about trying to quarantine them as the flock has already been fully exposed to the virus.

Marek's has so many different symptoms and seems to affect each bird differently, so it's hard to predict how long things take to improve or go down hill. The young pullet I had to put down a few months ago deteriorated pretty rapidly and a week after she first started showing symptoms, it was clear that there was no hope. She was lying right over on her side and her neck had twisted too so that eating and drinking was impossible without help. She had two huge tumours when I did a post mortem on her. It was the first time I had deliberately culled an animal and I cried afterwards but it really helped me when I found the tumours and realised that I had done the right thing. It also confirmed to me that it is Marek's and it means I will be more confident in identifying the point at which culling is necessary for others. Thankfully, at the moment, I am happy that we are at the tlc stage.

Good luck with your visit to the vets or better still that Violet has made a miraculous recovery by Monday and you don't need to go.

Regards

Barbara

 

[bobbie girl]

The vet visit was postponed to Thursday because of snow, which was a bit of a bummer. She's been paralyzed for about a month now, and I hate keeping her in a box the whole day. We only have one other hen, too, so as long as Violet is sick, they are both all alone. I don't think she's in the splits position, but it makes sense it would be Mareks because her sister is also showing symptoms -- not nearly as severe though -- indicating that its a disease rather than an injury.
I know what you mean by "queen of the palace." That's exactly how my other hen acts! She is very loud and bossy.
Do your birds seem less interested in food when they have Mareks? Violet has been refusing to eat scrambled eggs and yogurt, which is very weird for a hen.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi again.

Sorry to hear your vets appt was postponed for the wrong reasons rather than a miraculous recovery.

So far with mine, they have kept their appetite. The one who has been lame the longest is very demanding of food but eats very delicately. The other who is on her second attack wolfs food down. Sadly though I think she is slowly deteriorating despite the turmeric and black pepper. She's starting to be wry tailed and is struggling to move around in the nest whereas before she was getting up and turning herself (a bit awkwardly but she was managing) This morning, she was facing away from the food and was twisting to reach it rather than turn, so picked her up and turned her myself. She's going to need a bath too because she is soiling herself and that in itself will be stressful for her as I will have to take her down home where it is warm, which is a car journey.
If I don't see any improvement in another few days I will have to make "the difficult decision". I have been here before and I now have the experience to know when it is necessary and my gut feeling is that I'm approaching that point. Really not looking forward to that, but her quality of life is not good enough at the moment to warrant letting her continue when there is no hope of improvement. Having done the post mortem on the other one and finding the tumours, that gives me much more confidence that it will be the right thing to do for this one too if she doesn't pick up soon.

A month is a long time for your girl to be nest bound and perhaps she is coming to the end of her battle with the illness(if that is what it is) and that is why she is no longer eating. I really hope I am wrong. If she does die, I would strongly encourage you to do a post mortem so that you know what you are dealing with next time.

For info, my first pullet that had it didn't do the splits. She had both legs stuck out together on one side and rolled over onto her side if she wasn't propped up. A couple of times she had been trying to get up and had fallen out of the nest and was almost on her back when I found her. I think that was when the wry neck started.

So sorry not to be able to offer any real optimism on this one. There are joys and heartache in keeping poultry and unfortunately you have to relish the former and accept the latter.

I really hope that your other girl isn't coming down with it too. The stress of being on her own may be triggering it. She might be better brought inside with her pal if you can manage it.

 

[bobbie girl]

Sorry for the late reply. The vet said it might be arthritis and gave us some medication, which we've been using every day. She's started moving her legs more, but she hasn't started walking even though she's been on the medicine for a week. If she doesn't improve in a week, we'll probably have to put her to sleep.
I'm sorry to hear the turmeric and black pepper hasn't been working. How is she now?

 

[rebrascora]

Hi. Hope the vet is right and the medication kicks in soon.

I've delayed "the decision" as she is no worse..
We had some pleasant weather a few days ago so I put them both out in the sun and fresh air whilst I did a modification to the doors of their sick bay (made windows in them to let in more light). The worse one of the two really enjoyed some grass whilst the other one hopped off to have a dust bath. They both got a bit of attention from the rest of the flock but no serious bullying. When I put them back, I must not have shut the doors properly as when I went to shut the hen hose up that night, the doors to the sick bay were wide open and their feeder was tipped out and spilled over the hen house floor and she was sitting on the floor with her wings out keeping herself upright, presumably having been evicted by my other hens in their enthusiasm to check out what was on offer in the sick bay. I put her back in her nest with her pal and ensured the doors were properly secured this time and the next morning when I came to clean out the nest I found an egg. I am almost certain it wasn't there the night before, but it was dark, so I can't be certain. I don't know if it was her or her pal who laid it as they often snuggle up together in the nest, but as they both have Marek's so I did not think either one would even start laying.

I have stopped the turmeric/black pepper as she was starting to turn her nose up at it and it's more important that she eats and is happy than only eats a tiny bit of something that may or may not help her or that I have to force feed her. It comes down to quality of life and she is back to wolfing down food without the turmeric. I gave her some crushed egg shells yesterday after I found the egg and she was very keen for those too so perhaps it was her that laid it.
I'm thinking of rigging up some sort of frame and hammock to support her so that she is not soiling herself and would hopefully be more comfortable and can perhaps work on using those legs a little without actually taking weight. I just got a new drill for my birthday, so I should put it to use and do some joinery with it. I've seen a few photos of them on this forum and an old t shirt stapled over the frame with holes cut out for legs and poop hole shouldn't be too difficult.

Anyway, that's where I am at the moment. Hope your girl is feeling better soon. How is her pal doing? Perhaps I'm "lucky" that I have two sick, so they can keep each other company!

Best wishes

Barbara