Has Anyone Raised Murray McMurray's Delaware Broilers?

[wolfwalker]

does that imply then, that they won't breed true? I ordered 15 of these to ship this month and was told at that time that they would breed true but I'm now questioning the reliability of that information after reading this thread

correct it is an F1 and will not breed true

 

[SE_Gardener]

I have had Delawares for years, and showed them, too. All Delawares I have had, and those I have seen at shows, are like little turkeys at full adulthood, and they get there pretty fast. We don't eat a lot of them, ourselves, since we sell them as hatching eggs.

I looked at the Murray McMurray website, and they say that their Delaware broilers are full-bred heritage birds, not a cross.

The Livestock Conservancy lists Delawares on the watch list, says that they were originally developed to be broilers. Cocks are 8 pounds, hens six. https://livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/delaware

One of the questions I always get at shows is, how do you breed such big birds when mine get smaller with every generation? The answer is, you measure them as they are growing up and don't select your breeders until they are at least two. My dad and all the old-time breeders used to say, you don't know what you are looking at until you are looking at a two-year-old.

My guess is that Murray McMurray did what many hatcheries do, start producing chicks as soon as the pullets and cockerels are old enough. That's fine for producing lots of chicks that are Delawares, but they are not selecting for any particular traits, so it's not really breeding, per se. So their stock probably became smaller with time, which is the tendency for all large stock.

I also guess that Murray McMurray acquired a line of good Delawares that had actually been selected to be what the breed was meant to be, broilers.

So, their marketing types probably came up with a new name to bring back buyers who wanted broilers, without losing their current stock's customers.

And I say this because, comparing notes with other breeders at the Ohio National Poultry Show last year, most of us have been approached at one time or another by the hatcheries for stock.

Your comment was interesting to me as I've come to the same conclusion as you. When Henry Noll retired he sold his core New Hampshire and Delaware breed stock to Hubbard who likely rolled them into their "slow growth" broiler program. Freedom Ranger hatchery picked up the Noll's New Hampshire line and I'm thinking McMurray picked up the Delawares. It likely took several generations of both hatcheries not really selecting for meatbirds and the genetics likely reverted producing less of Henry Nolls' broilers. I have both Freedom Ranger New Hampshire and over the past several years been buying McMurray Delaware "enhanced heritage" broiler. While my experience is only 20-25% of McMurray Delaware pullet broilers are large breasted, broad and fast developing yet the cockerels are 75% broiler type. So I have managed to breed very large hens from both the New Hampshires and Delawares and find the cross is the magic to achieve a meatbird. It takes work to breed several generations selectin for meatbird traits. If you're patient to spend a couple years into the effort you'll achieve your goal but EVERY hatch requires evaluation of current breeders. I'd say most flock owners would want what I've been able to achieve, but I don't believe they're committed to the effort.

 

[EOD Daddy]

Ok I have been out of chickens for a while and am just getting back into them. I have raised Indian River chickens (Delaware Rooster over New Hampshire Hen) You all keep talking about these birds being hybrids? Would the Delaware its self not by a hybrid? It is a cross of a NH Rooster and a Barred Rock hen? Some one just kept and breed the white chicks that occasionally showed up. They would just be a hybrid for meat not really eggs back then. If you breed them long enough and selectively I am sure you could stabilize the color. Just curious.
I am thinking of breeding these to the Noll NH. Will they breed to true colors? Heck I don't know or even care......I just want to breed for a meat bird that lays 180 or so eggs a year. Color don't effect the taste or growth one bit. Worrying about color and shape is fine for show birds but ones that have to earn their way it don't mean squat.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Would the Delaware its self not by a hybrid? It is a cross of a NH Rooster and a Barred Rock hen? Some one just kept and breed the white chicks that occasionally showed up. They would just be a hybrid for meat not really eggs back then. If you breed them long enough and selectively I am sure you could stabilize the color. Just curious.

Every breed of chicken, dog, horse, or anything else was just a cross at one time, though mutations played a role in some. It is when someone breeds them until the traits stabilize that you get a breed.

Will they breed to true colors? Heck I don't know or even care......I just want to breed for a meat bird that lays 180 or so eggs a year.

A New Hampshire male bred to a Delaware hen will produce sex linked birds. The boys will be mostly white where the girls are mostly red. Some areas of both should have black feathers. A Delaware male bred to a New Hampshire hen should produce mostly white boys and girls.

Color don't effect the taste or growth one bit.

I agree.

Worrying about color and shape is fine for show birds but ones that have to earn their way it don't mean squat.

There are a few exceptions. If you pluck a white or buff bird you get a pretty clean carcass. If you pluck a black or dark red bird you can see pin feathers which is not a preferable to some people. I skin mine so color doesn't matter. Shape (or conformation) can make a difference to some people if they refer white meat or dark. There are some tines color of shape can matter.

 

[EOD Daddy]

Every breed of chicken, dog, horse, or anything else was just a cross at one time, though mutations played a role in some. It is when someone breeds them until the traits stabilize that you get a breed.


A New Hampshire male bred to a Delaware hen will produce sex linked birds. The boys will be mostly white where the girls are mostly red. Some areas of both should have black feathers. A Delaware male bred to a New Hampshire hen should produce mostly white boys and girls.


I agree.


There are a few exceptions. If you pluck a white or buff bird you get a pretty clean carcass. If you pluck a black or dark red bird you can see pin feathers which is not a preferable to some people. I skin mine so color doesn't matter. Shape (or conformation) can make a difference to some people if they refer white meat or dark. There are some tines color of shape can matter.

I knew about the crossing of NH and Delaware. I was talking about the strain of Del they are talking about. I also knew about bird color and plucking. What I mean is I think too many people worry about looks not does it work?

 

[imacowgirl2]

Your comment was interesting to me as I've come to the same conclusion as you. When Henry Noll retired he sold his core New Hampshire and Delaware breed stock to Hubbard who likely rolled them into their "slow growth" broiler program. Freedom Ranger hatchery picked up the Noll's New Hampshire line and I'm thinking McMurray picked up the Delawares. It likely took several generations of both hatcheries not really selecting for meatbirds and the genetics likely reverted producing less of Henry Nolls' broilers. I have both Freedom Ranger New Hampshire and over the past several years been buying McMurray Delaware "enhanced heritage" broiler. While my experience is only 20-25% of McMurray Delaware pullet broilers are large breasted, broad and fast developing yet the cockerels are 75% broiler type. So I have managed to breed very large hens from both the New Hampshires and Delawares and find the cross is the magic to achieve a meatbird. It takes work to breed several generations selectin for meatbird traits. If you're patient to spend a couple years into the effort you'll achieve your goal but EVERY hatch requires evaluation of current breeders. I'd say most flock owners would want what I've been able to achieve, but I don't believe they're committed to the effort.

This post is very interesting to me! I have Freedom Ranger New Hampshires…I’ve been working with them for about a year now, and I’m seeing some improvement in my carcass size. However, I’d really like to get that last half pound on them consistently — while a half pound doesn’t sound like a lot its often the difference between leftovers or not when feeding my family of 7 wannabe carnivores and leftovers means one less meal to cook! I’ve toyed with the thought of crossing them with Delawares but wasn’t sure where to get the largest Delawares that might retain some of the broiler traits for quick growth. You’ve given me some food for thought — to get your large Delaware hens I assume you were breeding your largest quick maturing hens to the best roosters each generation until you had large hens? Then for the best cross, are you doing a NH rooster over a Delaware hen? Or a Delaware rooster over a NH hen?

It was also very interesting for me to note — I ordered two batches of NH chicks from Freedom Ranger; the first batch ordered at end of August 2022 was significantly more uniform in bird size and shape, and grew noticeably faster than the batch I ordered in January 2023; it seemed like the birds weren’t necessarily being selected as well for broiler traits in the second batch compared to the first.

 

[Dforeyt]

Your comment was interesting to me as I've come to the same conclusion as you. When Henry Noll retired he sold his core New Hampshire and Delaware breed stock to Hubbard who likely rolled them into their "slow growth" broiler program. Freedom Ranger hatchery picked up the Noll's New Hampshire line and I'm thinking McMurray picked up the Delawares. It likely took several generations of both hatcheries not really selecting for meatbirds and the genetics likely reverted producing less of Henry Nolls' broilers. I have both Freedom Ranger New Hampshire and over the past several years been buying McMurray Delaware "enhanced heritage" broiler. While my experience is only 20-25% of McMurray Delaware pullet broilers are large breasted, broad and fast developing yet the cockerels are 75% broiler type. So I have managed to breed very large hens from both the New Hampshires and Delawares and find the cross is the magic to achieve a meatbird. It takes work to breed several generations selectin for meatbird traits. If you're patient to spend a couple years into the effort you'll achieve your goal but EVERY hatch requires evaluation of current breeders. I'd say most flock owners would want what I've been able to achieve, but I don't believe they're committed to the effort.

Do you have hatching eggs available?

 

[SE_Gardener]

Ok I have been out of chickens for a while and am just getting back into them. I have raised Indian River chickens (Delaware Rooster over New Hampshire Hen) You all keep talking about these birds being hybrids? Would the Delaware its self not by a hybrid? It is a cross of a NH Rooster and a Barred Rock hen? Some one just kept and breed the white chicks that occasionally showed up. They would just be a hybrid for meat not really eggs back then. If you breed them long enough and selectively I am sure you could stabilize the color. Just curious.
I am thinking of breeding these to the Noll NH. Will they breed to true colors? Heck I don't know or even care......I just want to breed for a meat bird that lays 180 or so eggs a year. Color don't effect the taste or growth one bit. Worrying about color and shape is fine for show birds but ones that have to earn their way it don't mean squat.

The Delaware is a breed long recognized by APA. The F1 progeny between Delaware and NH would be hybrid. What's interesting the original breeding of NH on Barred Rock actually sets up a type of "spiral breeding" when Delaware on NH are crossed producing Indian River which is similar to how the commercial Cornish Rock is bred. This may explain the "magic" hybrid vigor of the Del:NH cross...

I breed the Indian River hybrid from strict meatbird criteria culls of Del male on NH female. I maintain two breed flocks #1 Del Roo with 2 of best Del hen "broilers" type and multiple "broiler" type NH. The F1 males are fast fleshing and at 15 wks 7#. The F1 females are 40/60% "broiler" types. I cull the 60% from 10wks on and only finish true broiler types. #2 flock is NH Roo with 2 best NH hens "broiler" type as breed stock along with a couple Delaware "broiler" type hens which produce very large F1 males. I also keep a couple of the slightest/smallest Delaware hens. Those small hens produce small F1 offspring - the males are culled and a couple females kept as layers - they are small easy keepers 4-1/2# and are egg laying machines of large eggs but egg production falls off dramatically at 3yrs so they are culled. This is the Hubbard "Golden Comet". So I essentially have "broilers" and layers. Remember the larger the bird selected for breed stock and "broilers" lose some of the egg production and consume a lot of feed. So it's important to select, cull and butcher wisely. You can't just cross the Del on inferior hens and expect "Broiler" type. It took me a couple years to achieve a fair consistency of fast fleshing, early/fast molt birds that produce "Broiler" type offspring. This selection process is not forgiving. Birds quickly revert to the smaller less flesh layer type. So if you're not committed to the selection/cull routine stick to buying Cornish Rock broiler chicks. Either way, there's no way you can free range a chicken and expect meatbird size/quality whether Cornish Rock or dual purpose breeds. I raise the broilers in confinement with high protein feet 28% first two weeks and 22% to finish. The birds flesh up quickly, and without a lot of running around the flesh is juicy and very tender. Remember dual purpose birds finish 14-16 wks where Cornish Rock finish at 6-8 wks. Sorry no eggs.

 

[SE_Gardener]

The Delaware is a breed long recognized by APA. The F1 progeny between Delaware and NH would be hybrid. What's interesting the original breeding of NH on Barred Rock actually sets up a type of "spiral breeding" when Delaware on NH are crossed producing Indian River which is similar to how the commercial Cornish Rock is bred. This may explain the "magic" hybrid vigor of the Del:NH cross...

I breed the Indian River hybrid from strict meatbird criteria culls of Del male on NH female. I maintain two breed flocks #1 Del Roo with 2 of best Del hen "broilers" type and multiple "broiler" type NH. The F1 males are fast fleshing and at 15 wks 7#. The F1 females are 40/60% "broiler" types. I cull the 60% from 10wks on and only finish true broiler types. #2 flock is NH Roo with 2 best NH hens "broiler" type as breed stock along with a couple Delaware "broiler" type hens which produce very large F1 males. I also keep a couple of the slightest/smallest Delaware hens. Those small hens produce small F1 offspring - the males are culled and a couple females kept as layers - they are small easy keepers 4-1/2# and are egg laying machines of large eggs but egg production falls off dramatically at 3yrs so they are culled. This is the Hubbard "Golden Comet". So I essentially have "broilers" and layers. Remember the larger the bird selected for breed stock and "broilers" lose some of the egg production and consume a lot of feed. So it's important to select, cull and butcher wisely. You can't just cross the Del on inferior hens and expect "Broiler" type. It took me a couple years to achieve a fair consistency of fast fleshing, early/fast molt birds that produce "Broiler" type offspring. This selection process is not forgiving. Birds quickly revert to the smaller less flesh layer type. So if you're not committed to the selection/cull routine stick to buying Cornish Rock broiler chicks. Either way, there's no way you can free range a chicken and expect meatbird size/quality whether Cornish Rock or dual purpose breeds. I raise the broilers in confinement with high protein feet 28% first two weeks and 22% to finish. The birds flesh up quickly, and without a lot of running around the flesh is juicy and very tender. Remember dual purpose birds finish 14-16 wks where Cornish Rock finish at 6-8 wks. Sorry no eggs.

Here's pics of 2023 Top Rooster and Top Hen selection at 19 wks this week -1st week June hatch. I select both NH and Del breeding stock with substantive blocky body - balanced leg/thigh and breast with wide back and deep chests. Likewise I select pullets with that same block style body with wide deep chests, balanced leg/thigh and breast. Note the Top 2 pullets are close to the same size as the Roo (little smaller but not much). As reference these two pullets at 19 wks are as large and substantive as mature hens. I call them "tanks". The Roo just started crowing last week and "pretending" to mate and the pullets POI isn't expected for 3-4 wks. I never select tall upright birds for breeding. This will produce higher majority of both male/female broiler types. At 18wks Roo weight 7lb 11oz. I have not weighed hen in past couple weeks. She should weigh in at 6-1/2# or 6-3/4# at 19wks. Not bragging just wanted to show what I select for.