Hatching at high altitude

[R2elk]

I am adding soda lime everyday now, and am increasing the amount each day. It is Day 18 now. I know I should've starting adding it sooner than I did, so here is how I am going to do Days 1 - 18 next time. The soda lime goes in around my Turn 2, so I am able to see how much color change has occurred by night and early morning.

Soda lime schedule for approximately 36 eggs:
Day 6 - 2.5oz (75g)
Day 9 - 2.5oz (75g)
Day 11 - 2.5oz (75g)
Day 13 - 3oz (90g)
Day 15 - 3oz (90g)
Day 16 - 3oz (90g) + 2.5oz (75g) (went back for Turn 3 and the bag was purple)
Day 17 - 5oz (150g)
Day 18 - 6oz (180g) (TODAY!)

This is taking more soda lime than I thought at my elevation ((EL8150), but if someone is at a lower elevation these amounts would be less; higher elevations more. By how much I am not certain. This would probably be related to the partial pressure.

I moved 27 eggs into the hatcher and I really think that I was not adding enough soda lime at the beginning. I am going to repeat this with the Day 6 addition and increasing the soda lime by 0.5-1oz for each day. My goal was to hatch out at least 50% of the eggs still incubating from Day 5, which was 43. Pozees brought it to my attention that if I hatch out better than 25% I probably have a win at my elevation. That would be 11. Still good, but I am not exactly feeling that would be a success for me.

I have been over candling to check progress, but I have a humidifier (room at 45%+) and heater (room at 80*) in the room so the eggs do not get cold or dry, and I only candle for a max of 20 seconds with my 1000 lumen flashlight candler (I can see clearly through almost any egg). When the fresh soda lime has been in the incubator for an hour or so the embryos are going to town! If I candle when I put in the soda lime after it has been spent, then the embryos are moving slowly and not very much.

I am going to increase the soda lime for the last 3-4 days, so here is my estimate.
Day 19 - 6.5oz (205g)
Day 20 - 7oz (210g)
Day 21 - 8oz (240g)
Day 22 - 4-8oz if needed

That will be just over 3lb for an incubator run.

I know that soda lime is somewhat unknown, but the uses of soda lime are similar to how I am using it in the incubator setup. Plus, I have never had any whiff of ammonia as reviews have stated I might, although the amounts I am using have been tiny.

So, Day 18 with 27 moved into the hatcher.
4 Days and Counting.

Hatching at altitude is different from hatching at lower elevations and while there may be a benefit to removing CO2 from the incubator, there may also be a fine line of how much CO2 should be removed.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/303882/carbon-dioxide-causes-the-pip-with-muscle-spasms

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...d-oxygen-levels-in-the-incubator#post_5465503

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/805213/co2-in-incubating

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/843903/has-anybody-used-a-co2-monitor-in-their-incubator

Good luck with your project.

 

[lgc1970]

Adelina that is a great question. I am incubating eggs from a few ranges of elevations.

EL0800, EL1400, EL4600, EL5700, EL6200, EL8600

Those from elevations lower than mine are at about 60% still in the hatcher, and the EL8600 (of 6, 5 are still going).

 

[lgc1970]

R2elk great food for thought. Thank you for the well wishes; greatly appreciated!

I found the following helpful information in the links you provided:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/303882/carbon-dioxide-causes-the-pip-with-muscle-spasms

"The initiation of hatch occurs partially from the increased carbon dioxide level in the egg. This causes the embryo to begin twitching it's muscles, allowing the inner shell membrane to be punctured by the egg tooth. The chick then begins breathing the air in the air cell. As the carbon dioxide level begins to rise again, the muscularia complexus (the pipping muscle) at the base of the neck begins twitching again, facilitating the hatch. Abdominal muscles also begin twitching, which helps draw the yolk sac into the celoem. Leg muscle twitching helps strengthen the legs."

It looks to me like the carbon dioxide needed to initiate hatching is building up inside the egg (from the chick itself), not from the other chicks in the incubator. Too much carbon dioxide would kill a chick - they have just the amount they need inside that egg.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...d-oxygen-levels-in-the-incubator#post_5465503

"Carbon Dioxide Tolerance
Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a natural by-product of metabolic processes during embryonic development. In fact, CO2 is released through the shell from the time the egg is laid. Carbon dioxide levels increase in the air within the setter and hatcher when there is insufficient air exchange. Younger embryos have a lower tolerance level to CO2 than older ones. The tolerance level seems to be linear from the first day of incubation through the 21st day. During the first 4 days in the setter, the tolerance level to CO2 is about 0.3%.

Carbon dioxide levels above 0.5% in the setter reduce hatchability, with significant reductions at 1.0%. Total embryo mortality occurs at 5.0% CO2. Hatching chicks give off more CO2 than embryos in eggs, and the tolerance level in the hatcher is about 0.75%. Recording devices are available for measuring the CO2 content of the air, and some incubators have them as standard equipment. The best place to measure the CO2 is in the exhaust duct coming out of the setter or hatcher. Measurements taken inside the machines are not as accurate because opening the doors will change the environment in the machine."

I doubt I will ever purchase a CO2 monitor so the other 2 sites do not do me much good. But still good information.

************ HERE IS THE KICKER ************

At my elevation there will naturally be more CO2 in the air that is being contained within an incubator. This is because the partial pressures are so low and the CO2 is so much 'heavier' than O2 that the air within an incubator simply ends up with a higher CO2 level than at EL4800 and less. We are talking in the range of 0.7%, and this plus the ambient CO2 levels is enough to kill the embryo at almost any stage of development.

The young embryo is very susceptible to high CO2 levels and with increased CO2 comes increased mortality. They need CO2, but small amounts. Plus, the egg itself is producing the amount of CO2 that it needs to incubate and hatch. Incubators, even when the vents are open, will trap more CO2 than O2.

Keeping this food for thought in mind during my incubation process...
- All the vents remain open at all times this means that the incoming air always has a small amount of CO2 and the eggs will never be completely deprived of either O2 or CO2
- I am not introducing the soda lime until Day 6 (but I actually may try it on Day 0 for 1 bator run to keep it lower at the start and see the results for myself)
- I am allowing the soda lime to be used up before I replace it; allowing CO2 levels to rise, but with candling I have watched this being problematic: slow moving embryos
- I will continue using very small amounts of soda lime in comparison to CO2 scrubbers which use several ounces for only a few hours of use and also force the air through the scrubber rather than the soda lime simply being nearby

I am curious everyone. If this is a success for me would you ever try it yourself? And if yes, what elevation are you at? It seems that the cut off for high altitude is identified as EL3000, but there are only limited effects up to EL4800. EL4800 seems to be the line for major issues.

 

[ReptileMom]

I live at basically 5000 elev. I am following this avidly. If your experiments even show a small but significant promise of more hatching, then I will do the soda lime. I have already looked up a supplier online. Bookmarked and waiting. Very interested in this discussion. Who knows, you may start a small but definite trend!

I realize there are many variables that can affect the growth and hatchablitiy. I am curious about the survival rate of those that hatch and their hardiness after hatch. Quality of growth, etc. Please keep us up to date.

 

[bumpershoot]

I will absolutely be trying this! I live at 6800 ft and any improvement in hatchability would be considered a win! In fact, I plan on doing two batches at the same time. One will be with shipped eggs in a Sportsman @ 5700 ft that are nominally coming from sea level and one with eggs from 5700 ft brought up to this elevation. I may bring a few of the eggs from sea level to here just to see if it works, but it's hard to compete with a Sportsman and I really want some babies from this set of eggs.

 

[Adelina]

Wondering If additional holes in the bottom and a laptop lap cooling fan with fan pointing down to help draw out the heavier CO2 would help... At this point it can't hurt... Oh and I'm EL 8,400 ft

 

[trsturself]

If our broody doesn't have much luck then I'll definitely give this a try. We're at ~6800ft and had a really hard time getting eggs to hatch in our incubator even though the numbers looked perfect. I'd get 25%+ to the hatcher but only 25% of those or less would hatch.

 

[lgc1970]

Glad to see this may help many! I will keep up the posting.

I will definitely check in after the hatch, too. I had not yet thought about improved / under performing viability after the hatch. The research that I did was only to improve hatch-ability. I will definitely log in on that one.

To come clean... I was told that I would lose 10-25% of my flock to health, predators, and improper care, but to date I have all of my original flock except for those that we have put to our own use. So, I honestly had not put much thought into the post hatch situation. I know it is just good luck that I have not fed 1 for/to the fox or under cared for some or had some get sick, and I know that day will come. It just has not been at the top of my list.

So... ... I'll keep in touch.

Thanks for the responses!

 

[Pozees]

I got soda lime yesterday, I put some in the hatching tray in the Sportsman and some outside the hatcher next to it, because I was afraid of chicks stepping into it. The bowl in the hatcher had to be changed today, the one outside the hatcher has not colored at all - I thought perhaps pulling CO2 out of the ambient air might help, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference. I'm at 5400 feet.

 

[lgc1970]

************* CRICKETS **************

I forgot just how 'mind-numbing' this part is... like watching for the drips in new paint to run a little more. [If you were looking for new drips, then at least your eyes would get to move!]

Moved the eggs to the hatcher on Day 17. Raised humidity to 75%. Checked air cells and they are close to 20% of the egg. Seems a touch large, so I am assuming that the 45 - 60% humidity may not have been quite enough during incubation. Should not affect them too much though as it was not down near 35% or below ever.

Late on Day 18, the embryo movement was good and jerky. I candled after the eggs had been in the hatcher for a day to ensure that they were still cookin' in their new home. Marked the 'up side' of the egg so if they should get moved excessively during hatch day I may have the opportunity to put them back up side up, or at least know which ones might be struggling more.

I have had the pleasure of seeing a few of them rock. The soda lime is being used up faster; and after it has been in the incubator for a couple of hours, more of them move. I am putting in 2 cheese cloth bags with only 1.5 - 2oz of soda lime in each; now 2X / day. I have also raised the humidity and heat in the room so I can place the new bags in the bator without much mental anguish.

Day 20 and still counting ... down that is!

1 DAY LEFT!!!
! !