Hatching at high altitude

[lgc1970]

I got the results!

Not exactly what I expected, but the results were somewhat inconclusive until I explained that the eggs were from varied elevations. Then the flood gates opened...

This ended up being a 2.5 parter.

1. TOO MUCH CO2
2. TOO LITTLE H2O

1. The CO2 levels were at 1.65% when measured, but it could have been even higher at time of death. This drop in CO2 levels could be from improper storage or any number of other factors... bottom line 1.65% is too high for hatching. The embryos showed signs of enlarged vascular systems and brains also, which is the matching conclusion to elevated CO2 from autopsy. The soda lime should be increased for the entire run. The guy explained that the soda lime is essentially inert and the amounts of ammonia off-gas are not detectable until you reach amounts of 2oz being converted in 1hr or less. The soda lime is exactly what they use for surgical procedures and when used as a CO2 sponge it should only collect the extra CO2. He went on to explain that the egg / embryo is constantly producing CO2 inside the membrane to assist with hatching. Those levels of CO2 are what matter for embryo development and hatching.

I at this point I asked why is there information about CO2 being ADDED to incubators for hatcheries. He said those hatcheries add CO2 AND O2 in place of nitrogen. Studies are continually being performed on the subject, but for an uncontrolled incubator environment (the room where the bator sits) is not able to readily support any of the air filtration necessary for such a process. He went on to state that there is no long term benefit to CO2 addition during incubation and artificially raised CO2 levels are not for the hatching period.

The CO2 levels were above the limit for hatchability and due to the humidity levels being too low the amount of oxygen needed was actually higher.

2. The humidity levels were too low (ran between 45 - 60% for the entire bator run and bumped to 70 - 80% for hatching) for the set. Yup, too low on the humidity.... BUT there is a second part to this. The humidity should be maintained at approximately 65% for the incubation period and then raised to 70 - 75% during hatch for eggs from SEA LEVEL to EL4000. The humidity should be maintained at 55 - 60% for incubation and raised to 70 - 75% during hatching for eggs from EL5000 - EL7000. The humidity should be maintained at 45 - 55% for incubation and raised to 70 - 75% during hatching for eggs from EL7500 and higher.

2.5. The eggs from the lowest elevation should be given humidity level priority if incubating in the same environment, but this situation should be avoided...

Humidity affects on the egg actually changes with egg porosity. Egg porosity decreases with increasing the elevation of the laying chicken. So, an egg laid at sea level will be highly porous when compared to an egg laid at EL8000. Eggs laid at higher elevations tend to maintain more of the water that is needed within the membrane than eggs laid at sea level.

I had eggs from various elevations and was unaware of the humidity needs for the eggs from sea level vs the eggs from EL4500+.

For me now:
I have increased the humidity levels in my current bator run and added more soda lime. Let's see how it goes.

 

[lgc1970]

So folks, does anyone have any results they would like to share?

I will only be incubating / hatching until July 15. Then, I will not start again until late August / early September.

Happy Hatching!

 

[trsturself]

I got the results!

Not exactly what I expected, but the results were somewhat inconclusive until I explained that the eggs were from varied elevations. Then the flood gates opened...

This ended up being a 2.5 parter.

1. TOO MUCH CO2
2. TOO LITTLE H2O

1. The CO2 levels were at 1.65% when measured, but it could have been even higher at time of death. This drop in CO2 levels could be from improper storage or any number of other factors... bottom line 1.65% is too high for hatching. The embryos showed signs of enlarged vascular systems and brains also, which is the matching conclusion to elevated CO2 from autopsy. The soda lime should be increased for the entire run. The guy explained that the soda lime is essentially inert and the amounts of ammonia off-gas are not detectable until you reach amounts of 2oz being converted in 1hr or less. The soda lime is exactly what they use for surgical procedures and when used as a CO2 sponge it should only collect the extra CO2. He went on to explain that the egg / embryo is constantly producing CO2 inside the membrane to assist with hatching. Those levels of CO2 are what matter for embryo development and hatching.

I at this point I asked why is there information about CO2 being ADDED to incubators for hatcheries. He said those hatcheries add CO2 AND O2 in place of nitrogen. Studies are continually being performed on the subject, but for an uncontrolled incubator environment (the room where the bator sits) is not able to readily support any of the air filtration necessary for such a process. He went on to state that there is no long term benefit to CO2 addition during incubation and artificially raised CO2 levels are not for the hatching period.

The CO2 levels were above the limit for hatchability and due to the humidity levels being too low the amount of oxygen needed was actually higher.

2. The humidity levels were too low (ran between 45 - 60% for the entire bator run and bumped to 70 - 80% for hatching) for the set. Yup, too low on the humidity.... BUT there is a second part to this. The humidity should be maintained at approximately 65% for the incubation period and then raised to 70 - 75% during hatch for eggs from SEA LEVEL to EL4000. The humidity should be maintained at 55 - 60% for incubation and raised to 70 - 75% during hatching for eggs from EL5000 - EL7000. The humidity should be maintained at 45 - 55% for incubation and raised to 70 - 75% during hatching for eggs from EL7500 and higher.

2.5. The eggs from the lowest elevation should be given humidity level priority if incubating in the same environment, but this situation should be avoided...

Humidity affects on the egg actually changes with egg porosity. Egg porosity decreases with increasing the elevation of the laying chicken. So, an egg laid at sea level will be highly porous when compared to an egg laid at EL8000. Eggs laid at higher elevations tend to maintain more of the water that is needed within the membrane than eggs laid at sea level.

I had eggs from various elevations and was unaware of the humidity needs for the eggs from sea level vs the eggs from EL4500+.

For me now:
I have increased the humidity levels in my current bator run and added more soda lime. Let's see how it goes.

That's very interesting. I know there are quite a few people in elevation that have success with the dry incubation method. It must be because the eggs maintain that water easier. If I use an incubator again, I'll definitely add the soda lime and also make some more ventilation holes. It's just hard to get fresh air and also keep the humidity levels up during hatch. I put a humidifier right next to the ventilation holes the fan pulls from and it was still difficult to keep the humidity at 65! I think it was probably my CO2 levels that kept most of my eggs from hatching even though they showed late development/movement.

 

[Pozees]

I am one of those using dry incubation, the humidity level in my incubator usually runs in the mid to high 20s, and occasionally tops 30%. In the hatcher I usually aim for 60-65% and have had a few sticky hatches that lead me to believe even that is too high. I just put duck and goose eggs into a hatcher Saturday, first duck hatched yesterday, a day early. I candled last night and the remaining duck egg I believe died right after I moved it to the hatcher, the 1 live goose egg still moving. That hatcher I have at 71% humidity by filling all trays and adding 2 bowls of wet towels.

In the other hatcher, I put 35 chicken eggs in, although at least one was iffy, due to hatch today and tomorrow. I had 7 out this morning and 8 more pipped. How annoying that work interferes with monitoring my hatch LOL. This group had soda lime the last (I think) 10 days in the incubator. I put it into some cheescloth and put the cheesecloth bundle into a glass bowl and set it on the bottom of the incubator, in what would be the hatching tray (Sportsman). I think I'm using 1/4-1/3 cup and changing every day. Some days some of the pellets are not as dark as others, but they are turning so I think I'm getting it about right. I hope, anyway. Next group to hatch include eggs shipped from the eastern half of the US, almost certainly at or near sea level. They move to the hatcher tomorrow.

Interesting about porosity. I have noted eggs laid at home by hens hatched and raised here tend to have thinner shells, and this fall I'll see how the ones that hatched out of those eggs compare. I always assumed the thinner shells were inherently more porous, but perhaps not.

 

[lgc1970]

7 of 35 hatched with 8 more pipped! How many do you usually expect? Let me know how many you have in the end. I would love to know!

I have also heard of the dry method, but only for local eggs. That would seem logical if you are not moving them elevation-wise or if you are moving them from a high elevation to a low one. Up here an increase of just 50 feet in elevation seems to make a difference. I am debating building a coop on the top of my property just to have the eggs laid at a higher elevation, about 30 feet. The guy I have been dealing with seemed to be adamant that at least 40% humidity was necessary. At this point, I am going to listen.

I need to be specific and restate that the info I have from the guy is for EL2500m or EL8200ft. I am sure that I have already done that, but there it is again. He also emphasized that this info changes about every 75m or slightly less than 250ft about -1 to -0.5% in humidity levels. Also, once you reach EL1500m or EL4900ft it does not matter very much. That would be the point where humidity would be around 40 - 45% for the incubation and then 70% for the hatch. That is where only soda lime would be beneficial.

I found the info very interesting and I am willing to try it for a run or 3. I think this may be my best bet at this point.

When I was incubating long ago, at EL0800, I would get 48 eggs and somewhere between 44 - 48 would hatch. They were eggs from 'down the road', which I picked up with my grandma and carried on my lap the whole time until I got them to my grandparent's, which was next door. They went promptly into the incubator where grandma, grandpa, and I turned them 5 times a day for days 1 - 17 (they did noon and late night; I did before and after school then after dinner). The incubator was a wooden box that had a ceramic wall fixture light and a water dish with a towel; no fan, just holes along the bottom in front and along the top in back over the light. The calendar was on the wall behind it with the pencil on a string for marking off the days and number of turns. The eggs cost $2.40, which was less than the $0.50 per live chick (for orders over 100) if the farm's hatchery incubated them. All the chicks hatched on the same day, and if any did not hatch that day my grandpa said they were too weak or dead to make it and threw those eggs away. I remember picking up live chicks with my mother a day or 2 after the hatch. The live chicks were in one of those waxy type live chick boxes with the individual dividers and they still had shell in the bottoms of the bins along with that thin grass-like straw. You walked into a steamy room to get the boxes and each box had something like 52 bins with the corners at a diagonal. The chicks were maybe some sort of white broiler cross. It all seemed so easy.

Anyhow, those days are gone... and the farms (the chicken, my grandparent's and my parent's) are too.

 

[lgc1970]

I am one of those using dry incubation, the humidity level in my incubator usually runs in the mid to high 20s, and occasionally tops 30%. In the hatcher I usually aim for 60-65% and have had a few sticky hatches that lead me to believe even that is too high. I just put duck and goose eggs into a hatcher Saturday, first duck hatched yesterday, a day early. I candled last night and the remaining duck egg I believe died right after I moved it to the hatcher, the 1 live goose egg still moving. That hatcher I have at 71% humidity by filling all trays and adding 2 bowls of wet towels.

In the other hatcher, I put 35 chicken eggs in, although at least one was iffy, due to hatch today and tomorrow. I had 7 out this morning and 8 more pipped. How annoying that work interferes with monitoring my hatch LOL. This group had soda lime the last (I think) 10 days in the incubator. I put it into some cheescloth and put the cheesecloth bundle into a glass bowl and set it on the bottom of the incubator, in what would be the hatching tray (Sportsman). I think I'm using 1/4-1/3 cup and changing every day. Some days some of the pellets are not as dark as others, but they are turning so I think I'm getting it about right. I hope, anyway. Next group to hatch include eggs shipped from the eastern half of the US, almost certainly at or near sea level. They move to the hatcher tomorrow.

Interesting about porosity. I have noted eggs laid at home by hens hatched and raised here tend to have thinner shells, and this fall I'll see how the ones that hatched out of those eggs compare. I always assumed the thinner shells were inherently more porous, but perhaps not.

Any news to report?

 

[lgc1970]

Any news? At all?

I

 

[Pozees]

Any news? At all?

Sorry, busy time of year - of the 35 eggs that made it to the hatcher, 23 hatched, 1 half zipped and then died, not sure why. Of the 23, I had to assist the last 3 out of shells, as they too had zipped almost all the way and then gotten stuck - this is a mystery to me, because if anything the humidity was slightly higher when they were zipping than when the rest were, due to the hatching of the other chicks, but when I lifted them out to see what was going on there were peeping chicks with membrane dried to their heads and shoulders. One was destined not to survive and died in 12 hours, just weak, the others are fine. And adorable - mostly Silkies, 4 Bantam Cochins, and a couple RIR crosses The BC were brought to me by suncatcher, so they came from a higher elevation, I think she's right around where you are elevation-wise. She brought me 9 eggs, 4 developed and all 4 of those hatched.

Just moved both home-laid and shipped eggs to the hatcher yesterday morning, 4 (of 15) shipped Silver Duckwing Leghorn, 5 (of 9) shipped Mottled Houdan, 9 eggs laid here. A few of the eggs are pretty iffy but if I can't see they either didn't develop or started and quit, I move them. These will have had a few more days with Soda Lime than the previous sets.

 

[lgc1970]

Sorry, busy time of year - ...

Busy... I totally get that. I was just overly curious.

I have been reviewing my call notes and the report now to see if I can glean any new information from all of this. I am really struggling with some of the bits. With having studied so many research publications and articles that I am starting to go a little information blind.

I am at a point of having identified the instructions that are good to follow and the instructions that need more researching.

First, it seems obvious that the humidity needs to be raised for hatching eggs from lower elevations; the lower the elevation the higher the humidity. But, the increase of humidity at the end of incubation seems up for debate.

The need for greater amounts of oxygen is obvious and has been proven to me by the autopsy info and through candling the eggs along the way. But, the amount of ventilation to reach that increase in O2 and reduction in CO2 is improbable; therefore, soda lime must be used to accomplish a similar result.

Now, I have another question that seems both why and of course all over again... Temperature. Since the air is so much thinner at my elevation, could an increase in temperature aid in incubation. An increase in temperature could assist in increasing the humidity and increase the speed of air molecules thereby increasing the number of atoms that reach the egg.

Altered Instructions for Sea Level Incubation:
1. Higher humidity for Days 0 - 18 for eggs from lower elevations (amount of increase tbd by laid elevation)
2. Increase O2 by use of soda lime for entire run

Additional Instructions to Question Further:
3. Increasing the humidity for the final 3 days?
4. Increasing the temperature 0.5^ from 99.5^ to 100.0^?

As for Instruction Item 3, I have no real reason to accept that the humidity at my elevation should be raised to 70 - 75% at this end period. Hens do get excited or agitated during the final 24 - 48hrs, but this excitement will not raise the average humidity under a hen to 70% when the relative humidity is 40% no matter how much she sweats. Although, consideration must be given for the elevation difference, that can be accounted for with an increase in humidity for the entire run. The number of people reporting that dry incubations work for them and the artificial increase is causing 'sticky' hatches is more than would make this a sound, just-do-it step. Therefore, I will forego this step during a few of my future hatches.

And Instruction Item 4, as I discussed previously, is just a thought that I have been tossing around for a while. This is from the air molecule speed first, but this is also from the number of people reporting smaller chicks and longer hatch periods while hatching at elevation; and there is enough information on the changes caused by altitude for other things like baking and boiling, that this thought seems like another point to consider.

Is anyone else having any better luck? Has anyone tried any of these changes?

 

[lgc1970]

It is getting very late in the primary incubation season to have this information be of real use for a little while, but hopefully this is food for thought in the coming incubation futures.

Good Luck to all the High Altitude Hatchers out there! And don't forget to post your news... it could be the 'missing link'.