Hatching at high altitude

[bumpershoot]

Hey IGC1970,

I have been following your experiment with great interest and, like you, have been trying to put the information together into a format that will allow for a higher success rate. As yet, I have been unable to test out how any of this would work out for me because it has become too hot for eggs to be shipped. Hopefully, the coolness of fall will help remedy that.

 

[Mtn Margie]

Well, it seems that incubating eggs from all different altitudes at the same time is problematic to begin with. So what is needed is a compartmentalized incubator with different humidities and air mixtures most beneficial for the low, mid and high elevations and then your problems will be solved, except for the USPS issues. Or perhaps a bigger house for three incubators and their associated rooms.

Glad I could help!!!!?????

 

[bumpercarr]

Busy... I totally get that. I was just overly curious.

I have been reviewing my call notes and the report now to see if I can glean any new information from all of this. I am really struggling with some of the bits. With having studied so many research publications and articles that I am starting to go a little information blind.

I am at a point of having identified the instructions that are good to follow and the instructions that need more researching.

First, it seems obvious that the humidity needs to be raised for hatching eggs from lower elevations; the lower the elevation the higher the humidity. But, the increase of humidity at the end of incubation seems up for debate.

The need for greater amounts of oxygen is obvious and has been proven to me by the autopsy info and through candling the eggs along the way. But, the amount of ventilation to reach that increase in O2 and reduction in CO2 is improbable; therefore, soda lime must be used to accomplish a similar result.

Now, I have another question that seems both why and of course all over again... Temperature. Since the air is so much thinner at my elevation, could an increase in temperature aid in incubation. An increase in temperature could assist in increasing the humidity and increase the speed of air molecules thereby increasing the number of atoms that reach the egg.

Altered Instructions for Sea Level Incubation:
1. Higher humidity for Days 0 - 18 for eggs from lower elevations (amount of increase tbd by laid elevation)
2. Increase O2 by use of soda lime for entire run

Additional Instructions to Question Further:
3. Increasing the humidity for the final 3 days?
4. Increasing the temperature 0.5^ from 99.5^ to 100.0^?

As for Instruction Item 3, I have no real reason to accept that the humidity at my elevation should be raised to 70 - 75% at this end period. Hens do get excited or agitated during the final 24 - 48hrs, but this excitement will not raise the average humidity under a hen to 70% when the relative humidity is 40% no matter how much she sweats. Although, consideration must be given for the elevation difference, that can be accounted for with an increase in humidity for the entire run. The number of people reporting that dry incubations work for them and the artificial increase is causing 'sticky' hatches is more than would make this a sound, just-do-it step. Therefore, I will forego this step during a few of my future hatches.

And Instruction Item 4, as I discussed previously, is just a thought that I have been tossing around for a while. This is from the air molecule speed first, but this is also from the number of people reporting smaller chicks and longer hatch periods while hatching at elevation; and there is enough information on the changes caused by altitude for other things like baking and boiling, that this thought seems like another point to consider.

Is anyone else having any better luck? Has anyone tried any of these changes?

Just found this thread, wish I'd found it earlier. I'm only at 4500 ft, but I've had a horrible time hatching my shipped eggs. This year, I set 79 eggs that were shipped from sea level over three different hatches. First hatch, 0...second hatch....0....third hatch 4 hatched and it was a staggered hatch over 4 days. When I set my own eggs, I usually have close to an 80% hatch rate. So, I'd been trying to figure out why my shipped eggs were doing so badly, thinking maybe the post office was the problem, a problem with the incubator maybe. A few weeks ago I was trying to go to sleep and had one of those eureka moments....altitude! So, the batch of eggs that are in my bator right now are from 3800 ft, still not 4500 but better. I have such a problem finding eggs for my breed, so it was a challenge to find some from a higher altitude. We are on day 10 and it looks like out of 16 eggs, I have 11 starters (much better than in the past). I don't usually remove my clears until I candle at day 14.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in on the hen hatching vs. incubator hatching humidity. I've also hatched shipped eggs under my broody hen before I lost her to a neighbor's dog. Those eggs came from sea level (or close to). But they also came from a dry environment, not unlike mine. I put them under her in July, in my neck of the woods we actually get up to about 30% humidity in July. They hatched at the beginning of August, when we are in the monsoon season and our humidity is the highest (although not anywhere near 75%). I had a 50% hatch rate from those eggs that were placed under the broody.

So, I read this thread now with some trepidation. Probably too late for me to try the soda lime, even if I could find it somewhere? Anyway, very interesting conversation. As a science buff (engineer and computer scientist) I am very interested in the results of the experiments, the autopsies and further reading.

 

[lgc1970]

Glad to have another along for the ride, bumpercarr!

While your turmoils are not to be taken lightly, they will be of help here. Most of us are taking breaks until fall or spring, so the joint learning may be slower for a while. I hope you stick around.

 

[bumpercarr]

Glad to have another along for the ride, bumpercarr!

While your turmoils are not to be taken lightly, they will be of help here. Most of us are taking breaks until fall or spring, so the joint learning may be slower for a while. I hope you stick around.

I will certainly be sticking around. I only started another batch in the bator because my entire flock was wiped out by a dog. I was also planning on waiting until Nov-Dec to start hatching again, but fate intervened. I ordered some soda lime, I suppose starting it late is better than not starting it at all! After this hatch (crossed fingers), I'll take a break until I get some of my own laying and fertile again. I like to hatch in late summer (August through September), but I won't have any ready and most of the breeders take the summer off so it is harder to get eggs as well. Usually I hatch lightly at that time just to replace any flock losses and verify fertility and then go full hog in December through March, light in April to fill in the gaps and then stop until late summer. This year has been tough on me though, I lost almost the whole flock in February to some neighbor's dogs (had 2 left) and then lost everything that I had hatched and the 2 survivors three weeks ago to my son's dog. Went to Texas to pick up some juveniles and chicks and cranked up the incubator with these shipped eggs. Won't have anything breedable until probably Nov-Dec timeframe. Very frustrating to have to start over for the second time this year.

I do have two incubators, and plan on asking for a Sportsman for Christmas, so next spring I should be able to do some serious experimenting with three bators. Just seeing how these guys from 3800 feet hatch will confirm or deny my hypothesis that hatching sea level eggs at altitude is a problem, which is why I was so careful about the altitude when I ordered this last batch of eggs. After reading this thread, I realize that my suspicions were well founded.

 

[lgc1970]

As bumpercarr points out, the hatches in the incubators seem to be more staggered and less 'fruitful'. For those of us who do not have a broody and cannot find the breeds on their wish list readily available locally, the bator seems to be the only glimmer of hope. I will be breaking down and buying chicks in the spring, if my luck doesn't turn around by October.

I am trying to establish a Large Fowl flock that can lay the 3 - 4+ dozen eggs / week that my family consumes (this is not a joke, 6 eggs / morning, plus I bake!) and provide some meat birds through the year. And though a couple bantams are okay, as I have a daughter that wants only peewee or small sized eggs to eat for breakfast, they are not at the top of my list.

Wish List -
Brahma (we have 1, +1 mix, 10 eggs in bator)
Marans (0, 7 eggs in bator)
Croad Langshan (0)
Faverolles (0, I keep trying to catch up with a woman in east Parker...)
Orpingtons (2 bantam, +1 mix, 6 LF eggs in bator)
Easter / Olive Eggers (3, +1 gorgeous roo!, 6 eggs in bator)

Wish List Maybes:
Cochin (0)
Barnevelders (0)
Welsummer (0)

We have other breeds at the moment, but it's like a list of not again's for breeds (RIR, Barred Rock, Buff Rock [hens are nice, just not for us], California White...). We just could not find what we were looking for, so I opted to get the flock going with what we found instead of waiting another year like my husband suggested AGAIN! Now, I am doing the high altitude incubating to try to get what we are looking for in our flock. It's just so frustrating... 7 hatchlings so far (but 2 rehomed cause they were bantams).

I may need to join hatchers anonymous before I turn off the bulbs!

 

[bumpercarr]

As bumpercarr points out, the hatches in the incubators seem to be more staggered and less 'fruitful'. For those of us who do not have a broody and cannot find the breeds on their wish list readily available locally, the bator seems to be the only glimmer of hope. I will be breaking down and buying chicks in the spring, if my luck doesn't turn around by October.

I am trying to establish a Large Fowl flock that can lay the 3 - 4+ dozen eggs / week that my family consumes (this is not a joke, 6 eggs / morning, plus I bake!) and provide some meat birds through the year. And though a couple bantams are okay, as I have a daughter that wants only peewee or small sized eggs to eat for breakfast, they are not at the top of my list.

Wish List -
Brahma (we have 1, +1 mix, 10 eggs in bator)
Marans (0, 7 eggs in bator)
Croad Langshan (0)
Faverolles (0, I keep trying to catch up with a woman in east Parker...)
Orpingtons (2 bantam, +1 mix, 6 LF eggs in bator)
Easter / Olive Eggers (3, +1 gorgeous roo!, 6 eggs in bator)

Wish List Maybes:
Cochin (0)
Barnevelders (0)
Welsummer (0)

We have other breeds at the moment, but it's like a list of not again's for breeds (RIR, Barred Rock, Buff Rock [hens are nice, just not for us], California White...). We just could not find what we were looking for, so I opted to get the flock going with what we found instead of waiting another year like my husband suggested AGAIN! Now, I am doing the high altitude incubating to try to get what we are looking for in our flock. It's just so frustrating... 7 hatchlings so far (but 2 rehomed cause they were bantams).

I may need to join hatchers anonymous before I turn off the bulbs!

I'm raising LF Brahmas (partridge and darks). By spring I should have some to share and would be happy to do so. I can probably part with some cockerels once my chicks grow up a little bit and some eggs hatch (again, fingers crossed). I also have a pair of LF dark Brahmas that have to go because they have vulture hocks if you are interested in them (they are currently 6 weeks old). I'm trying to breed to the show standard, and vulture hocks are a disqualifier so this pair will end up in the meat locker if I don't rehome them. Only the cockerel shows the vulture hocks, so I suspect it is a recessive gene in the pullet, meaning that 1/2 to 3/4 of the chicks would have VHs as well. If I wanted to invest the time to get rid of the VHs, it would take about 3 generations and would still probably show up on occasion. Also have a bantam dark (probably a pullet) that was packed as a peanut egg in one of the egg shipments. All of these are available for rehoming, I don't have enough room to keep any that I'm not going to breed right now. I picked up this breeding pair in Texas last week. No eggs from them yet, but hopeful.

 

[lgc1970]

Of my latest incubator run, hatch day is tomorrow... 15 (3 are iffy) of 28 made it to the hatcher.

The humidity is holding at 65 - 70%. Temp is 99.7 - 100.1. And I put 3 3oz baggies of soda lime in yesterday to hopefully hold on through the end of the hatch.

One just pipped! in the last hour. It is 1 of 2 LF Silkie eggs (like they are really big...). They were extra eggs included in an order of Marans eggs. Cute little eggs, but once again the small ones pip first. Just like Pozees said and all of the information that I read after my last hatch states.

So, this hatch looks like 12 of 28. All shipped eggs from sea level up to EL1600. We shall see...

 

[Pozees]

My Sportsman came pre-set at 100 degrees and I have not messed with it.

I have a Welsummer pullet and 2 cockerels I have been hanging onto because the boys are quite passive and have had their tails removed twice by more dominant males (they are no longer housed with), so I didn't really feel I could sell them with no tails. If you would like them, I will sell the 3 for $30. They hatched in early March, so are almost 4 months old.

I put 5 Mottled Houdan and 5 Silver Duckwing Leghorn eggs into the hatcher last Wednesday, 1 LH hatched, 1 tried and died halfway through zipping and seemed large for its shell, the others never even internally pipped, and all that went into the hatcher had developed (5 of 9 MH, 5 of 16 LH). Very disappointed. Of my Silkie eggs, 4 of 6 hatched, they were laid here, and the ones that didn't look like they died immediately after transfer to the hatcher. I am mulling over trying half the next group in the hatching tray of the Sportsman, so no change in atmosphere or humidity, to see what happens.

 

[bumpercarr]

My Sportsman came pre-set at 100 degrees and I have not messed with it.

I have a Welsummer pullet and 2 cockerels I have been hanging onto because the boys are quite passive and have had their tails removed twice by more dominant males (they are no longer housed with), so I didn't really feel I could sell them with no tails. If you would like them, I will sell the 3 for $30. They hatched in early March, so are almost 4 months old.

I put 5 Mottled Houdan and 5 Silver Duckwing Leghorn eggs into the hatcher last Wednesday, 1 LH hatched, 1 tried and died halfway through zipping and seemed large for its shell, the others never even internally pipped, and all that went into the hatcher had developed (5 of 9 MH, 5 of 16 LH). Very disappointed. Of my Silkie eggs, 4 of 6 hatched, they were laid here, and the ones that didn't look like they died immediately after transfer to the hatcher. I am mulling over trying half the next group in the hatching tray of the Sportsman, so no change in atmosphere or humidity, to see what happens.

Did you use the soda lime in your incubator/hatcher? I just ordered it, should be here on Wednesday. I think I'll put some in this hatch that I'm working on to see what happens. I don't use a separate hatcher, I hatch in the incubator. Gets interesting when you have staggered hatches.