Helmstead to the Goat Help Desk....

[ametauss]

If it was Entero would the antibiotics help?? What symptoms should I look for??

As I said little Dude was running around on Sunday like normal but had a bit of loose stool then DH came home at 3:20pm Monday with the kids and found him laying down.... I didn't notice anything unusual on Sunday to make me suspect anything...

Other than the grain incident, they all acted normal for them... still a bit standoffish and running around jumping on stuff...

They even ate some leaves off of some branches we cut....

I'm just so stumped... If they acted strange or had any outward symptom I do believe I'd have seen it... one min he was running around the next he can't get up and gurgly...

 

[ksalvagno]

Sometimes it is just that way. Animals are very stoic. They usually try not to show symptoms until they can't hide it anymore.

So sorry for your loss. I hope your other ones do just fine.

 

[helmstead]

While we do sometimes give Pen G precautionarily, the only CURE for entero is C/D antitoxin. You should google entero and do some reading. The cause is any type of rumen slowing...and often they crash suddenly. This is why it is SO important for all goat owners to have C/D antitoxin on hand, and to administer it on ANY occasion that might bring on a rumen disturbance. It will never do any harm, but might be that life saving step.

 

[ametauss]

Is C/D antitoxin the same as the CDT vaccine? I do have some CDT on hand that I give a month prior to kidding which I am doing this weekend since I have a doe due at the end of Sept.....

 

[helmstead]

Nope, not the same...and vaccinated goats will still get Entero.

The antitoxin is a treatment, the vaccine a prevention.

 

[ksalvagno]

No, it isn't the same thing. There is a thread on www.backyardherds.com all about it. You may want to read up on it.

 

[cassie]

Quote:
I think I've argued this one before, with Cassie, so I won't argue it again other that to say IMHO with holding water at ANY time, other than choke, is a terrible idea.

I've dealt with entero only a couple of times, knock on wood...and never withheld water...and have turned it around each time with prudent care. I cannot imagine withholding water would do any more than dehydrate an already stressed goat.

I NEVER said anything about withholding water from a goat with entero. I said to withold water to prevent lactic acidosis from an excess of grain. Entero, grain overload, and bloat are three separate entities requiring separate treatments that can occur individually or in any combination. Meaning a goat can have overload, entero and bloat all at the same time. Or it can have bloat by itself. Or it can have bloat and entero and no overload.

Withholding the water for a few hours for a goat that has just been caught with its head buried in the grain bin is preventing stress, not giving it. In fact at this point the animal is not stressed at all. It is still satisfied with itself for managing to get into all those goodies in spite of your best efforts to keep it out. The stress sets in a few hours later after the acid builds up and makes the animal sick. The chemical reaction that produces the lactic acid cannot occur without the presence of water. If after gorging on grain the goat tanks up on water it allows lactic acid to be produced and an excess of lactic acid causes stress big time. Death too. The simple treatment of witholding water and filling the animal up on dry hay will prevent that deadly cycle.

On the occasions I have found the goats in the grain and before they could get to the water and penned them up with lots of hay and no water for about six hours, the next day they were fine and none the worse for wear. I also gave them an entero shot. If I didn't find the culprits until after they had tanked up on water it was a whole different ball game. In this case I did not withhold water. There would be no point. The damage was done and the production of an excess of lactic acid was underway. Treatment with antiacids, activated charcoal plus preventative treatment for entero was necessary to save their wretched little lives. Sometimes IV fluids and maybe even an IV sodium bicarbonate drip administered by the vet was indicated.

BTW, I got the protocols for the treatment of grain overload from an article by some veterinarians whose specialty was ruminent medicine at the University of California Veterinary School at Davis California. It did not come from page 32 of the Cassie Book of Logic.

As for entero, for better or worse I have had a lot of experience with it. It is very common here probably having to do with soil pH. Treatment for entero is a dose of clostridium perfingens antitoxin. Some penicillin is helpful and so is thiamine. Thiamine is produced in the goat's rumen, and rumen upsets can cause a thiamine deficiency. Thiamine deficiency causes some truly bizzarre symptoms in rumenants including apparent blindness, paralyses, pushing against the wall with the head, to name a few. A lot of vets simply do not recognize entero and do not treat it properly when they do. Even my expensive book Goat Medicine did not have a protocol for dealing with entero at all. I do not know if that was corrected in later editions or not.

Just for the record, I have bred and owned dairy goats since 1965. For many years I had a commercial dairy and milked over a hundred head. I mention this only to make it clear that I did not just fall off the turnip truck.

 

[helmstead]

You even said that bit about being a breeder since '65 and about not having just fallen off the turnip truck the last time we hit this disagreement, LOL!

While I respect your time and knowledge, I still disagree with the idea. I often expect people to find all the opinions they can and create an educated game plan for their own goats, as I have done...and here are just two differing opinions

I will have to go off what I know, and advise people based on that the same as you will. Peace?

 

[ametauss]

UPDATE:

Thanks ladies for all the advice... I called around trying to find CD antitoxin and had no luck... I'm going to order some from Jeffers but it's not going to do me much good with the doe....

She seems fine. No bloating tummy. She's been eating hay and drinking water. DH put her out in a dog run by herself yesterday after it warmed up a bit. She could hear the other goats and they all talked to one another. She seemed upset to be alone and with her baby gone, even more so.... Her body temp from touching her she was slightly warm (not feverish but normal), I went ahead and gave her a second injection of the antibiotic and a squirt of the electrolites for good measure... then let her return to her friends as she was quite upset being alone even with me there....

She went right into her favorite spot in the chicken coop and seemed right happy with herself... I have a beautiful goat house for my pygmy babies but some of them prefer to lay on the floor of the chicken coop since my rotten little ladies prefer to roost in the barn rafters and only go into the coop to lay eggs but we did find a stash of eggs in the barn loft last night... rotten girls...

I told my DS to not put out any goat food last night since Sally was back in there.... The fat little buggers can go a night w/o feed and eat hay and leaves....

Now that the emergency seems to be over, I have questions about Sally. She's very thin and she's suppose to be bred and due at the end of this month... She doesn't even look prego... not like the other two... She's got hollows on either side of her spine as if she were starved... Is there anything I can give her to "beef" her up?
I'm concerned that if she is prego that the kid won't make it.... or Sally for that matter... The other doe I got from the same mean-ol-man, seems to be putting on the pounds finally and she's starting to look prego....

 

[helmstead]

Questions:

What and how much are you feeding? Hay?

What is your deworming protocol?

I'm so glad she appears to be turning the corner!