Help...I have a "Splitting" headache now!

[DylansMom]

All these splits and sex linked colors are killing me. I have been talking with a very sweet lady who is looking to sell a couple Peachicks, however she is not very good with genetics and has had the parents for awhile so her memory of what they were purchased as is a bit fuzzy. She thought the Male was a Purple-Midnight. She sent some pics and he very much appears to be a Purple BS Pied, she insists there is Midnight in there though, could he be split to Midnight, or would he have to have 2 Purple genes and no Midnight genes to be Purple? Also The mother of the chicks was purchased some years ago from Legg's as part of a Peach pair, the male died and the hen was put in with this male. Seeing pics of this hen she would have to be Peach BS if she's a Peach. What would chicks from this pairing be, other than BS which is obvious? Help!

 

[Garden Peas]

I think the male could theoretically be purple split midnight if he has two purple genes and only one midnight gene, if I understand the genetics correctly. Here's a link to the history of of the Midnight mutation:

http://www.leggspeafowl.com/midnight.htm

Since the hen will only have one peach gene, male chicks from that breeding would have one purple gene, one peach gene, and a 50% chance of a midnight gene, and would be visibly purple. Hen chicks would be purple... At least that is the explanation we got the other day

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/931210/please-help-sex-my-peafowl/70

Sounds like a lovely pair

 

[DylansMom]

I think the male could theoretically be purple split midnight if he has two purple genes and only one midnight gene, if I understand the genetics correctly. Here's a link to the history of of the Midnight mutation:

http://www.leggspeafowl.com/midnight.htm

Since the hen will only have one peach gene, male chicks from that breeding would have one purple gene, one peach gene, and a 50% chance of a midnight gene, and would be visibly purple. Hen chicks would be purple... At least that is the explanation we got the other day

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/931210/please-help-sex-my-peafowl/70

Sounds like a lovely pair

Okay, but if Purple is a color and Midnight is a color wouldn't they be alleles and cancel each other? This is what has me so confused.

 

[Garden Peas]

Okay, but if Purple is a color and Midnight is a color wouldn't they be alleles and cancel each other? This is what has me so confused.

No, not if I understand it correctly.

Because sex-linked colors are.... sex-linked... I think that means they HAVE to be carried on the sex gene, someplace other than where the regular color genes are carried. So no, purple and midnight would not be alleles (unless I totally misunderstand how this works...)

Now it seems like the more interesting question is what happens if a male has TWO midnight genes AND two purple genes... I don't know which one "wins" -- I think the answer might be purple, but I don't know. Need help here from the cavalry

(I'm thinking that, because two purple genes trumps IB, so maybe would also trump all the other colors except sex-linked? I dunno, though...

Eta... unless I am wrong, and midnight is actually a sex-linked color... but I'm thinking only purple, peach and cameo are sex-linked?

 

[Garden Peas]

Here's a really nice explanation from the stickies...

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/390889/peafowl-201-further-genetics-colors-patterns-and-more

Split Colors
To understand what a 'split' bird is you have to have a grasp on what it means to carry a color. A carried color is a color the coding for which exists in the bird genotypically but is not displayed phenotypically. In order to display one of the color mutations, two copies of the mutation must be present. Not all coding for the various colors are located in the same place on the chromosome or even the same chromosome. For instance, the sex-linked colors are located on the gender chromosome. The only alleles (variations) which are known to exist (meaning the only two bits of coding which replace one another on a chromosome because they code in the same place) are White and Pied (yes, Pied is a pattern). For more about this, please see the white and pied section.

Namely what you will see in birds is blue split to other colors. Blue split to White, Blue split to Purple, Blue split to Bronze, etc. This is because it takes 2 of any color code to make the color display, and having only one (ie, split to the color), will default the bird to the wild type blue coloration. The only color change in a split bird occurs when the bird is split to white (or silver pied). In this case, the bird will show white wing coverlets/primaries

As far as we know, mutation split mutation (ie: Bronze split Opal, Taupe split Charcoal, etc) birds do not exist. This is not to say that it's impossible for them to exist. No one so far as proven that any of the colors are alleles of any of the other colors, meaning no one can prove that any of the coding for these colors exist on the same area of the same chromosome and would replace one another. So theoretically this is possible, but you'd be a little silly to try to breed for this.

We do know that the sex-linked colors can carry (be split to) the other colors, as we know they are on the gender chromosome and the others are not.


Sex-linked Colors
The current sex-linked colors are Purple, Cameo, Peach, and Sonja's Violeta (the newest). These colors do not transfer between birds like normal colors. Instead they travel on the gender chromosomes. Males must have 2 copies of the allele to display the color but females only need 1 copy. For the sake of simplicity, I will show the transference of the color when bred to a Blue. I will use purple as the sex-linked color. I will add pictures of punnet squares for visual examples when I get the time to use a scanner.

Purple male x Blue female = Blue split Purple males and Purple females
Purple female x Blue male = Blue split Purple males and Blue females

When a sex-linked color is bred to a blue split to its own color (ie purple bred to split purple), males and females of the sex-linked color can be produced. Remember that blues split to sex-linked colors will ALWAYS be male (see below). Additionally, the sex-linked colors will breed true when bred to itself.

Purple female x Blue split Purple male = Blue split Purple males, Purple males, Blue females, and Purple females
Purple male x purple female = Purple males and Purple females

No female will ever be split to a sex-linked color, because they only need 1 copy to display the color. A female with the gene will always be the sex-linked color. I will use Purple again as my sex-linked color for an example.

Purple male x Opal female = Blue split Purple/Opal males and Purple split Opal females

When two sex linked colors are bred together, the male offspring will be blue split the colors of the parents and the females will be the color of the father. Let's use Peach and Purple as our two sex-linked colors.

Peach male x Purple female = Blue split Peach/Purple males and Peach females

If you were to go insane and decide to breed the children of the pairing above together, it would be awesome and look something like this:

Blue split Peach/Purple male x Peach female = Peach males, Blue split Purple/Peach males, peach females, purple females

A note on Peach color: The current theory is that Peach is an interaction of the Purple and Cameo colors. If that is true, a Peach bird will necessarily be "split" Purple and Cameo, and could produce either when bred.

BTW, it says that Sonja's Violetta is sex-linked too, so I was wrong on that.

Okay, now MY head hurts

Thanks for sharing

 

[Garden Peas]

Oh yeah, and I think part of the last bit about the sex-linked breedings is wrong and gets corrected farther down the stickies... assuming you are still conscious and not in a coma by then...

 

[DylansMom]

Oh yeah, and I think part of the last bit about the sex-linked breedings is wrong and gets corrected farther down the stickies... assuming you are still conscious and not in a coma by then...

Can you find any examples of a sex-linked color male that is split to a non sex-linked color? Like Purple split to bronze? I just don't remember ever seeing this before.

 

[Garden Peas]

yeah, it's in there, let me dig it out for you

 

[Garden Peas]

Okay, here's the correct sex link stuff from @Rosa moschata which is at the end of the sticky (I'm still looking for the stuff I read about sex link x regular color

):


Peach Male X Purple Female = Purple Males split to Peach, and Peach Females. This is because "Peach" results from a Z chromosome containing both the Purple and Cameo mutations due to crossover. As such, Peach is genetically Purple-Cameo. If a male homozygous for Peach (and is thus genetically homozygous for Purple-Cameo) is crossed with a Purple female, then the sons will have one Z chromosome from Dad with Purple-Cameo, and one Z chromosome from Mom with just Purple. Since there are two copies of Purple, that color will show. But because there is only one copy of Cameo, that color will not show. The result is that visually the sons will be Purple, but genetically be Purple split to Peach.

This is different from a Blue split to Peach male, which will have one Z that lacks either the Purple or Cameo mutation (thus a "normal" Z), and another Z which has both Purple and Cameo (they are not alleles). Blue males split to Peach which are bred to Peach females can have Blue, Peach, Purple or Cameo daughters. The Blue daughters inherited their Dad's original Z with neither mutation. The Peach daughters inherited their Dad's original Z with both mutations. The Purple and Cameo daughters result from inheriting Z chromosomes which underwent crossover during spermatogenesis (a normal occurrence) that occurred at a point between the loci of the Purple and Cameo mutations. This causes a swapping of chromosome material between Dad's two Zs, allowing the two mutations forming the Peach phenotype to separate. If crossover occurs at any point between the Purple and Cameo loci, the newly-formed Zs will have EITHER Purple OR Cameo, rather than EITHER both together OR none.

Look up the "History of Peach" via Leggs Peafowl. Clifton Nicholson bred a Cameo male to a Purple female. Sons from this mating were IB split to Purple and Cameo. They appeared IB because they had only one copy of each mutation, but neither of them had a "normal" Z chromosome -- one Z had Cameo, the other had Purple. These sons were then mated back to their mother.

"This mating produced eleven peachicks which included three India Blue (2 males and 1 female), three Cameos (females), four Purples (2 males and 2 females) and one Peach (female). This was the first Peach produced."

Note the resulting offspring. The IB males did not inherit their father's copy of Purple, and so did not show the color. Some daughters were Cameo (inheriting their Dad's one Z with that mutation), and some were Purple (inheriting their Dad's other Z with the other mutation). But what did the IB and Peach daughters inherit?

The IB daughter somehow got a Z from Dad with neither Cameo nor Purple. The only way that could have happened is if crossover occurred between Dad's two Zs at a point between the Cameo and Purple loci. The result was two recombined Zs -- instead of one with Cameo and one with Purple, we had one with neither and one with both. That's how the IB daughter got a Z with neither mutation. There is no other way that an IB daughter could result from this mating. And that's how the Peach daughter got a Z with both the Purple and Cameo mutations.

Just as Purple and Cameo can combine onto one chromosome during crossover in a male split to both, they can also separate again in a male split to Peach -- but ONLY in IB (or any other Non-Purple, Non-Cameo color) split to Peach males. This is because in order for the mutations to separate, another Z must be available with NEITHER mutation. If crossover occurs in a male with either mutation on both Zs, you'd never know it because the result would be the same. For example, a Purple male split to Peach has two Zs with Purple, and one of those Zs also has Cameo. If crossover occurred and the Cameo gene switched over to the other Z, it will still be on a Z which also contains Purple. Males which show neither Purple, Cameo nor Peach but are split to Peach will thus have one Z with neither mutation. These males, when bred to any other females, will have daughters that are IB, Peach, Purple and Cameo (the frequency of the latter two will be dependent upon the frequency of crossover at points between the Purple and Cameo loci). Breeders have posted here that they have experienced this, and this would not be possible if Peach was a separate mutation rather than being genetically Purple-Cameo.

In terms of "what can you get?", an IB split to Peach male (one "normal" Z, one Purple-Cameo Z) bred to an IB female will result in the same diversity of daughters (IB, Peach, Purple and Cameo) as an IB split to Purple and Cameo (one Purple Z, one Cameo Z). The difference is in the ratios. An IB split to Peach male will be more likely to have Peach daughters than Purple or Cameo daughters. An IB split to Purple and Cameo male will be more likely to have Purple and Cameo daughters than Peach daughters. This is because the "less likely" daughters require inheriting recombined Zs with a crossover point between the two loci, while the others inherit their Dad's Z as-is.

There is extensive information out there on crossover inheritance with respect to sex-linked mutations in other bird species. This is how we have Cinnamon-Pearl and Lutino-Pearl cockatiels (Cinnamon, Pearl and Lutino are all sex-linked mutations, the genes lying on the Z chromosome). The process is the same. The frequency will vary with respect to the distance between the two loci -- the further apart on the chromosome the mutations are, the more likely the crossover point will occur between them.


A male cannot be "Blue split Peach/Purple." A male CAN be split to Purple. A male CAN be split to Peach. But remember that if he is split to Peach, genetically he has one copy of Purple and one copy of Cameo together on the same Z chromosome. If he had Purple on one Z, and Peach (i.e. Purple AND Cameo) on the other Z, he would LOOK Purple. He wouldn't LOOK Blue.


A Peach male is NOT split Purple/Cameo. "Split" means a bird is heterozygous for a mutation -- i.e. it has only one copy of the mutation, and one copy of the "normal" version of the gene. Peach males are homozygous Purple-Cameo. They have two copies of each. They are not split for either. Peach males can produce Purple or Cameo offspring ONLY when bred to females who show either of those mutations. A Peach male bred to a female that is neither Purple nor Cameo will NOT produce Purple or Cameo offspring. However, a Non-Purple, Non-Cameo male split to Peach can.

 

[DylansMom]

Okay, here's the correct sex link stuff from @Rosa moschata which is at the end of the sticky (I'm still looking for the stuff I read about sex link x regular color

):


Peach Male X Purple Female = Purple Males split to Peach, and Peach Females. This is because "Peach" results from a Z chromosome containing both the Purple and Cameo mutations due to crossover. As such, Peach is genetically Purple-Cameo. If a male homozygous for Peach (and is thus genetically homozygous for Purple-Cameo) is crossed with a Purple female, then the sons will have one Z chromosome from Dad with Purple-Cameo, and one Z chromosome from Mom with just Purple. Since there are two copies of Purple, that color will show. But because there is only one copy of Cameo, that color will not show. The result is that visually the sons will be Purple, but genetically be Purple split to Peach.

This is different from a Blue split to Peach male, which will have one Z that lacks either the Purple or Cameo mutation (thus a "normal" Z), and another Z which has both Purple and Cameo (they are not alleles). Blue males split to Peach which are bred to Peach females can have Blue, Peach, Purple or Cameo daughters. The Blue daughters inherited their Dad's original Z with neither mutation. The Peach daughters inherited their Dad's original Z with both mutations. The Purple and Cameo daughters result from inheriting Z chromosomes which underwent crossover during spermatogenesis (a normal occurrence) that occurred at a point between the loci of the Purple and Cameo mutations. This causes a swapping of chromosome material between Dad's two Zs, allowing the two mutations forming the Peach phenotype to separate. If crossover occurs at any point between the Purple and Cameo loci, the newly-formed Zs will have EITHER Purple OR Cameo, rather than EITHER both together OR none.

Look up the "History of Peach" via Leggs Peafowl. Clifton Nicholson bred a Cameo male to a Purple female. Sons from this mating were IB split to Purple and Cameo. They appeared IB because they had only one copy of each mutation, but neither of them had a "normal" Z chromosome -- one Z had Cameo, the other had Purple. These sons were then mated back to their mother.

"This mating produced eleven peachicks which included three India Blue (2 males and 1 female), three Cameos (females), four Purples (2 males and 2 females) and one Peach (female). This was the first Peach produced."

Note the resulting offspring. The IB males did not inherit their father's copy of Purple, and so did not show the color. Some daughters were Cameo (inheriting their Dad's one Z with that mutation), and some were Purple (inheriting their Dad's other Z with the other mutation). But what did the IB and Peach daughters inherit?

The IB daughter somehow got a Z from Dad with neither Cameo nor Purple. The only way that could have happened is if crossover occurred between Dad's two Zs at a point between the Cameo and Purple loci. The result was two recombined Zs -- instead of one with Cameo and one with Purple, we had one with neither and one with both. That's how the IB daughter got a Z with neither mutation. There is no other way that an IB daughter could result from this mating. And that's how the Peach daughter got a Z with both the Purple and Cameo mutations.

Just as Purple and Cameo can combine onto one chromosome during crossover in a male split to both, they can also separate again in a male split to Peach -- but ONLY in IB (or any other Non-Purple, Non-Cameo color) split to Peach males. This is because in order for the mutations to separate, another Z must be available with NEITHER mutation. If crossover occurs in a male with either mutation on both Zs, you'd never know it because the result would be the same. For example, a Purple male split to Peach has two Zs with Purple, and one of those Zs also has Cameo. If crossover occurred and the Cameo gene switched over to the other Z, it will still be on a Z which also contains Purple. Males which show neither Purple, Cameo nor Peach but are split to Peach will thus have one Z with neither mutation. These males, when bred to any other females, will have daughters that are IB, Peach, Purple and Cameo (the frequency of the latter two will be dependent upon the frequency of crossover at points between the Purple and Cameo loci). Breeders have posted here that they have experienced this, and this would not be possible if Peach was a separate mutation rather than being genetically Purple-Cameo.

In terms of "what can you get?", an IB split to Peach male (one "normal" Z, one Purple-Cameo Z) bred to an IB female will result in the same diversity of daughters (IB, Peach, Purple and Cameo) as an IB split to Purple and Cameo (one Purple Z, one Cameo Z). The difference is in the ratios. An IB split to Peach male will be more likely to have Peach daughters than Purple or Cameo daughters. An IB split to Purple and Cameo male will be more likely to have Purple and Cameo daughters than Peach daughters. This is because the "less likely" daughters require inheriting recombined Zs with a crossover point between the two loci, while the others inherit their Dad's Z as-is.

There is extensive information out there on crossover inheritance with respect to sex-linked mutations in other bird species. This is how we have Cinnamon-Pearl and Lutino-Pearl cockatiels (Cinnamon, Pearl and Lutino are all sex-linked mutations, the genes lying on the Z chromosome). The process is the same. The frequency will vary with respect to the distance between the two loci -- the further apart on the chromosome the mutations are, the more likely the crossover point will occur between them.


A male cannot be "Blue split Peach/Purple." A male CAN be split to Purple. A male CAN be split to Peach. But remember that if he is split to Peach, genetically he has one copy of Purple and one copy of Cameo together on the same Z chromosome. If he had Purple on one Z, and Peach (i.e. Purple AND Cameo) on the other Z, he would LOOK Purple. He wouldn't LOOK Blue.


A Peach male is NOT split Purple/Cameo. "Split" means a bird is heterozygous for a mutation -- i.e. it has only one copy of the mutation, and one copy of the "normal" version of the gene. Peach males are homozygous Purple-Cameo. They have two copies of each. They are not split for either. Peach males can produce Purple or Cameo offspring ONLY when bred to females who show either of those mutations. A Peach male bred to a female that is neither Purple nor Cameo will NOT produce Purple or Cameo offspring. However, a Non-Purple, Non-Cameo male split to Peach can.

I was reading this at the same time, I still haven't found any examples of it. Oh my aching migraine!