Help me decide on a stallion to breed my mare to! Update #120

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
Thanks Pat

I really appreciate your response. I am certainly no horse expert so I wanted to ask the question gently. Your answer makes a lot of sense, after watching the vids I don't think these stallions are being worked very much and, honestly, a few looked not worked at all. Then again I prefer a leaner animal all around, I like my dogs lean and all three of my horses were kept at a good lean weight (was hard to do with my last colt I had, who was 3/4 POA and a very easy keeper LOL).

 

[duckluck]

Quote:
Sure! No problem...been there, done that!

 

[duckluck]

Quote:
Thanks Pat

I really appreciate your response. I am certainly no horse expert so I wanted to ask the question gently. Your answer makes a lot of sense, after watching the vids I don't think these stallions are being worked very much and, honestly, a few looked not worked at all. Then again I prefer a leaner animal all around, I like my dogs lean and all three of my horses were kept at a good lean weight (was hard to do with my last colt I had, who was 3/4 POA and a very easy keeper LOL).

Yep, they do need to be carrying more weight coming into the breeding season, but something else to bear in mind is, the fat look sells better...people often think that a lean or too thin animal looks unhealthy and they tend to equate heft with health, especially in horses where they will dapple out and really shine, unless they are grossly obese. A well rounded horse, physically speaking, creates a better first impression in the minds of many people and that first impression is what often sells the horse. I've seen people buy lame horses that were fat and dappled that pleased their first impression and pass up perfectly sound but thinner ones, even when the thinner horses have vet checked sound.

 

[GalloFino]

For those interested in the topic, there's an oldie but goodie post up on Fugly today about some of the things you might want to think about before breeding a mare:

http://fuglyblog.com/

 

[welsummerchicks]

The Fugly mission is to reduce 'back yard' breeding of unwanted/unmarketable/inferior quality animals. She urges people to not breed unless their mare is really exceptional and both mare and stallion have succeeded in competition. I'm afraid most of it falls on deaf ears(most people just take it as a criticism of their horse's quality or their judgement), but it is a good message.

The other more unique issue of course is our economy right now. Most of my breeder friends have either sold out or reduced their breeding operations significantly and very few are encouraging anyone they talk to, to breed their mares now or in the near future.

Jim, even when in optimal condition a fit horse never compares to how a very fit dog looks. They won't be near as drawn up or lean, though race horses might look a bit that way. But they will typically look that way for a few years of their life.

In fact horses in non-racing sports often look rather thick over the top of the neck and back - but hopefully a lot of that is muscle than fat.

The idea of having stallions a little fat comes from three things -

Number one - the fat makes the stallion look big and impressive. Fat sells. And in horses, as the old timers say - 'Fat covers a multitude of sins'. In other words, it conceals poor conformation(build).

Two - just traditional management of stallions here. In the USA, breeding stallions are generally under-exercised and over-confined. Many breeders don't have time to work their stallions - many never had any intent to do so. They may have turnout, they may not - turnout on grass can add to the overweight problem, especially in 'easy keeper' breeds.

Most breeders just don't have an 'exercise philosophy' for their breeding stallions. It depends some on which sort of horse breed it is and what tradition of horse management the owner belongs to. And on if the breeder has sufficient land and fencing or not, or if s/he has help that can work the stallion. In general, here, breeding stallions are not kept in training for competition - they generally compete for a short time to add to their desirability as a breeding animal - a few show wins definitely helps. But again, they'll be fit to work for a short part of their life only.

Most stallions aren't just 'a little flabby' - they're really overly fat and under-muscled.

Some stallions are so overweight that it affects their fertility.

Third - The 'get 'em fat for breeding season' mentality. This was connected to when forage and grain was available on the farm and when other animals had priority. In the old days horses were often at the end of the feed priority list behind other livestock - so could be very thin - a stallion would require extra feed or he would not be able to produce sperm.

As Americans, we were quite shocked to go to a government stallion station in Europe that housed 250 stallions, and see that a virtual army of employees were working full time to keep every single stallion exercised every day. Draft stallions pulled a wagon, saddle horses went on a group hack (yes a group of stallions) every day, trotters pulled a training cart around a track, and every single one of the 250 stallions got out every day.

In the USA that would be more unusual, even on smaller private farms with only 1-2 stallions.

 

[lockedhearts]

I did not read all the posts, but another point to consider, check out as many of the sires get as possible and hopefully with the mares in the pics w/ foals. Just because a stallion has great confirmation does not mean he will pass that or be able to correct a fault in the mare. When I bred my QH mare that just foaled last night, her head is a boxier foundation looking head, so I want a stallion that not only has a pretty head but puts that head on his foals in spite of the mare. Just remember Confirmation, then mind and lastly color. A friend of mines father always said Confirmation first, Mind second, if you get the color it is icing on the cake.

 

[lockedhearts]

Quote:
The other more unique issue of course is our economy right now. Most of my breeder friends have either sold out or reduced their breeding operations significantly and very few are encouraging anyone they talk to, to breed their mares now or in the near future.

Jim, even when in optimal condition a fit horse never compares to how a very fit dog looks. They won't be near as drawn up or lean, though race horses might look a bit that way. But they will typically look that way for a few years of their life.

In fact horses in non-racing sports often look rather thick over the top of the neck and back - but hopefully a lot of that is muscle than fat.

The idea of having stallions a little fat comes from three things -

Number one - the fat makes the stallion look big and impressive. Fat sells. And in horses, as the old timers say - 'Fat covers a multitude of sins'. In other words, it conceals poor conformation(build).

Two - just traditional management of stallions here. In the USA, breeding stallions are generally under-exercised and over-confined. Many breeders don't have time to work their stallions - many never had any intent to do so. They may have turnout, they may not - turnout on grass can add to the overweight problem, especially in 'easy keeper' breeds.

Most breeders just don't have an 'exercise philosophy' for their breeding stallions. It depends some on which sort of horse breed it is and what tradition of horse management the owner belongs to. And on if the breeder has sufficient land and fencing or not, or if s/he has help that can work the stallion. In general, here, breeding stallions are not kept in training for competition - they generally compete for a short time to add to their desirability as a breeding animal - a few show wins definitely helps. But again, they'll be fit to work for a short part of their life only.

Most stallions aren't just 'a little flabby' - they're really overly fat and under-muscled.

Some stallions are so overweight that it affects their fertility.

Third - The 'get 'em fat for breeding season' mentality. This was connected to when forage and grain was available on the farm and when other animals had priority. In the old days horses were often at the end of the feed priority list behind other livestock - so could be very thin - a stallion would require extra feed or he would not be able to produce sperm.

As Americans, we were quite shocked to go to a government stallion station in Europe that housed 250 stallions, and see that a virtual army of employees were working full time to keep every single stallion exercised every day. Draft stallions pulled a wagon, saddle horses went on a group hack (yes a group of stallions) every day, trotters pulled a training cart around a track, and every single one of the 250 stallions got out every day.

In the USA that would be more unusual, even on smaller private farms with only 1-2 stallions.

I agree with this except for this " She urges people to not breed unless their mare is really exceptional and both mare and stallion have succeeded in competition." My stallion was shown only at a couple of shows, he was injured and could no longer be shown. His bloodlines are impeccable and he out produces himself. My older QH mare has also never been shown due to injury, but she is a World Champion Producer and has Multiple Point Earning Foals.

 

[welsummerchicks]

There actually are people who will say that if a stallion or mare was injured through no fault of their own, they still should not be used as breeding stock, because they haven't truly proven one way or the other, that they have longevity under training.

I think 'in the good old days' (which I swore up and down ten years ago was a term I would NEVER use), that a good many horse breeders were very strict about what they'd breed and were pretty doggone free about telling others to do same, LOL.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Not to sound rude, but I want to know if we really need more foals in the world right now?

 

[welsummerchicks]

I've been nosing around and have been seeing that the top selling vanners today really do not have the more broad, drafty look. The trend is already toward a sportier looking horse.

There are a good many people who would agree with you, Celtic Hill. I am one of them. I am very discouraged about the market right now.

The recession appears to have hit bottom and is now slowly crawling up, but few new jobs are being added and it's likely to drag down the horse selling market for a good long time yet to come. Even after economic recovery starts, people stay jittery about discretionary spending for a long time after.