Help needed customizing low estrogen and gluten free feed

[saysfaa]

Teff, maybe. It is at least gluten free.

I tried to find info on estrogens, if any, that are in teff. I found that white teff has very different flavones than brown teff. Red teff has different than either white or brown. And which flavones are in each. A side note is the flavone differences are not influenced by where it is grown - that is significant.

Anyway, I found that estrogens are in flavones. But I did not find whether all flavones are estrogens or all estrogen us in the flavones. Or which flavones have more, less, or different estrogens.

The picture has the title and authors of the paper with the flavones in each white and brown teff.

 

[badgeroo]

Teff, maybe. It is at least gluten free.

I tried to find info on estrogens, if any, that are in teff. I found that white teff has very different flavones than brown teff. Red teff has different than either white or brown. And which flavones are in each. A side note is the flavone differences are not influenced by where it is grown - that is significant.

Anyway, I found that estrogens are in flavones. But I did not find whether all flavones are estrogens or all estrogen us in the flavones. Or which flavones have more, less, or different estrogens.

The picture has the title and authors of the paper with the flavones in each white and brown teff.

From what I gathered, 4 basic types/groups of phytoestrogens are: isoflavones, stilbenes, coumestans, and lignans. They have different impact. I am still learning.

I am sure most plants have at least minimal amounts of phytoestrogens, so there is no escaping them, but what really matters is how much is in them (I am also reading on higher impact on some types vs the others)

From this link: https://www.quora.com/What-foods-are-high-in-estrogen

1. Flaxseed (163,133)
2. Soybeans (45,724)

These 2 are the worst offenders - these numbers are micrograms per 100 grams.

I shortened the list from above link to include possible ingredients for my feed:
- Sunflower seed (71) (I know we crossed it out earlier, but it might be in small enough quantity to justify it)
- Lentils (13)
- Alfalfa sprouts (44) (similar case to sunflower seeds, at possibly higher nutritional value)

To give you an example of low microgram content, but supposedly high impact, beer is listed as only 9 micrograms but is said to have a very bad impact. Still looking into this.

 

[saysfaa]

It is irritating when randos interpret a study in considerable detail without giving credit to the researchers or a way to look at the whole study. This is not directed at you, badgeroo, at all. It is good to have something to start with.

Edit to add
The rando seems to be talkkng about this study
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16898863/

 

[badgeroo]

It is irritating when randos interpret a study in considerable detail without giving credit to the researchers or a way to look at the whole study. This is not directed at you, badgeroo, at all. It is good to have something to start with.

I agree, it would be nice to see a link to study showing all this and possibly more info.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes, the enzyme part is suspect per what I have found so far. I am skipping corn as ingredient and only use it as bait/snack in very small amounts per chicken.

What else should I consider that brings the good enzymes and nutrition to the table?

I'd try to back out some of the oats and replace with sorghum - oats are high in beta glucans which slow digestion (not a great thing for chickens) and contribute to sticky fecals (also not a great thing for chickens). Sorghum has a lot less fiber, a little less fat. Sadly, a good bit less lysine too - but you will be getting plenty of lysine from the field peas and the fish meal, I don't anticipate that being a limiting factor.

How do the prices compare, oats to sorghum, and is a low tannin sorghum available? The high tannin sorghums are popular in cheap bird seed, and I am certain you've seen song birds carefully selecting those red seed balls out of the feed mix and throwing it at the ground. It really can be unpalatable.

Sorghum can be high in phytate too, but your supplement can be selected with enzymes that counteract that. So will higher Met levels.

 

[badgeroo]

I'd try to back out some of the oats and replace with sorghum - oats are high in beta glucans which slow digestion (not a great thing for chickens) and contribute to sticky fecals (also not a great thing for chickens). Sorghum has a lot less fiber, a little less fat. Sadly, a good bit less lysine too - but you will be getting plenty of lysine from the field peas and the fish meal, I don't anticipate that being a limiting factor.

How do the prices compare, oats to sorghum, and is a low tannin sorghum available? The high tannin sorghums are popular in cheap bird seed, and I am certain you've seen song birds carefully selecting those red seed balls out of the feed mix and throwing it at the ground. It really can be unpalatable.

Sorghum can be high in phytate too, but your supplement can be selected with enzymes that counteract that. So will higher Met levels.

What else could I use besides sorghum? I am looking at millet and lentils. Possibly alfalfa and sunflower seeds (afterall)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Which Millet is available to you (I have numbers for four varieties, there is remarkable difference between the best and worst millets) and how does pricing compare?

 

[badgeroo]

Which Millet is available to you (I have numbers for four varieties, there is remarkable difference between the best and worst millets) and how does pricing compare?

OK, so here is the plan. This mill is pretty busy and help fairly limited, so I don't want to go there asking about particular ingredients.

I want to complie a list first, then go get the details and pricing for everything, come back home to polish out the details for the recipe and place the order. If something isn't available through the mill, they gave me the option to get it from outside source and bring the bag to them.

 

[badgeroo]

(nutritional numbers from previous advice here and basic google search)
The (imperfect) list so far:
- oats (11%p - 4%f)
- field peas (25.5%p - 1.6%f)
- fish meal (65%p - 9%f)
- kelp (8.5%p)
- enzyme pack

Maybe's:
- pearl millet (11.2%p - 4.3%f)
- quinoa (24%p - 10.3%f)
- teff (12.2%p - 3.7%f)
- lentils (24.6p - 1.1%f)
- alfalfa (15%p - 2%f - getting varying numbers for this)
- whole ground sunflower seeds (14.8p - 44.5%f)

 

[badgeroo]

What about brewer's yeast and DE?
Any other ingredients I should consider?

Thanks!