Help needed customizing low estrogen and gluten free feed

[Kenya Mwangi]

For anyone figuring prices: be aware that fresh meat has a large amount of water. Most of the other ingredients in this discussion are dry. So it may take five or ten pounds of fresh meat to give the same amount of protein as one pound of dried meat powder.

I don't remember how big the difference is, but I do remember it is big enough that direct price comparison can be very misleading.

This does not mean to rule out meat, just to be aware when comparing prices.

Hello I'm sorry. I didn't search what percent protein. 97% lean ground beef is 25% protein. It seems that natural meat, not dried powder, even has more protein than the feed in bags at tractor supply and probably more than enough amino acids that you can include many other ingredients as free choice.

I think if there was a recipe for unbioengineered ingredients without Roundup Ready Soy and Roundup Ready Corn that had a blueprint that is easy to implement and readily available, people would all switch to it without even asking any questions. Do you know why I think that? Because you think it too. Am I right?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

For anyone figuring prices: be aware that fresh meat has a large amount of water. Most of the other ingredients in this discussion are dry. So it may take five or ten pounds of fresh meat to give the same amount of protein as one pound of dried meat powder.

I don't remember how big the difference is, but I do remember it is big enough that direct price comparison can be very misleading.

This does not mean to rule out meat, just to be aware when comparing prices.

This is correct. Fresh meat is usually 75% water, give or take - so that 80/20 roast (meaning at least 80% protein as measure of dry matter) on the butcher's counter is only 25% * 80% = 20% protein by weight.


The best fish meals are less thant 10% water, and have crude protein numbers as % of total weight at or above 70%

The best soybean meals, again, below 10% water, with crude protein by weight over 50%

For comparison, most seeds, also under 10% water, and "protein dense" natural plant sources, in the 14.5 - 21% protein range. Dried grains are dried to under 10% water content for storage, and typically fall in the 10 - 15.5% crude protein range.

 

[NatJ]

Hello I'm sorry. I didn't search what percent protein. 97% lean ground beef is 25% protein. It seems that natural meat, not dried powder, even has more protein than the feed in bags at tractor supply and probably more than enough amino acids that you can include many other ingredients as free choice.

Generally yes. But if you are trying to make a feed at 20% protein, and the meat is 25% protein, it looks like you can't add much else and still get enough protein-- but once you allow for the water (which chickens would drink separately if it was not in the meat), then yes the chickens can eat quite a bit of lower-protein foods and have enough total protein. It is similar to using the fish protein that @U_Stormcrow mentioned, which is about 70% protein, plus a bunch of water.

But where people often estimate that a chicken needs about 4 ounces of dry food and 8 ounces of water each day (or some such numbers), with fresh meat it might be more like 3 ounces of dry things (grains & seeds), 4 ounces of meat, and 5 ounces of water. So it would look like the chickens are eating much "more" feed, because of the amount of water in the meat. The same kind of thing happens with any other feed that contains a lot of water (fruits and vegetables, live bugs, and so forth.)

That makes it is something to be aware of when figuring prices and deciding how much the chickens need to eat each day, but not actually bad as long as a person plans for it.

I think if there was a recipe for unbioengineered ingredients without Roundup Ready Soy and Roundup Ready Corn that had a blueprint that is easy to implement and readily available, people would all switch to it without even asking any questions. Do you know why I think that? Because you think it too. Am I right?

I think if there was any recipe that was easy to make at home, easy to get right, and relatively cheap, it would be very popular. But I think there are some people that would still buy a bag of feed from the store, rather than dealing with several different ingredients (similar to people buying a McDonalds meal or a frozen pizza instead of cooking something themself for dinner.)

Unfortunately, I have not yet seen any recipe for homemade feed that was simple for the person (not too many ingredients and they are easy for most people to get), while also being good for the chickens, especially if you want to keep the cost reasonable.

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

Generally yes. But if you are trying to make a feed at 20% protein, and the meat is 25% protein, it looks like you can't add much else and still get enough protein-- but once you allow for the water (which chickens would drink separately if it was not in the meat), then yes the chickens can eat quite a bit of lower-protein foods and have enough total protein. It is similar to using the fish protein that @U_Stormcrow mentioned, which is about 70% protein, plus a bunch of water.

But where people often estimate that a chicken needs about 4 ounces of dry food and 8 ounces of water each day (or some such numbers), with fresh meat it might be more like 3 ounces of dry things (grains & seeds), 4 ounces of meat, and 5 ounces of water. So it would look like the chickens are eating much "more" feed, because of the amount of water in the meat. The same kind of thing happens with any other feed that contains a lot of water (fruits and vegetables, live bugs, and so forth.)

That makes it is something to be aware of when figuring prices and deciding how much the chickens need to eat each day, but not actually bad as long as a person plans for it.


I think if there was any recipe that was easy to make at home, easy to get right, and relatively cheap, it would be very popular. But I think there are some people that would still buy a bag of feed from the store, rather than dealing with several different ingredients (similar to people buying a McDonalds meal or a frozen pizza instead of cooking something themself for dinner.)

Unfortunately, I have not yet seen any recipe for homemade feed that was simple for the person (not too many ingredients and they are easy for most people to get), while also being good for the chickens, especially if you want to keep the cost reasonable.

Hello Don't worry @NatJ there will be one soon. And more will follow.

 

[NatJ]

Hello Don't worry @NatJ there will be one soon. And more will follow.

I'm not worrying, but I've been watching for quite a few years already, so I don't have much faith in "soon." So I'll just keep watching and when it happens I will know.

 

[The Good Grumble]

(nutritional numbers from previous advice here and basic google search)
The (imperfect) list so far:
- oats (11%p - 4%f)
- field peas (25.5%p - 1.6%f)
- fish meal (65%p - 9%f)
- kelp (8.5%p)
- enzyme pack

Maybe's:
- pearl millet (11.2%p - 4.3%f)
- quinoa (24%p - 10.3%f)
- teff (12.2%p - 3.7%f)
- lentils (24.6p - 1.1%f)
- alfalfa (15%p - 2%f - getting varying numbers for this)
- whole ground sunflower seeds (14.8p - 44.5%f)

Not sure where you landed on this, but I’m a celiac and I also don’t use soy for any feed, and I followed this thread closely as I ended up with a rooster out of my last batch of chicks, so I cannot use New Country Organics layer feed. I need an all flock.

Grappling with the fact I may have to make my own this thread was really amazing especially the dialogue and research in it. Thank you.

I live pretty rural and unfortunately I’d have to order in all my grains. Not inexpensive by any means.

I did land on this until I can figure out what better options I have to make my own. I do have to order it because I’m in New England.

https://texasnaturalfeeds.com/

Would you share what you ended up with? How is it working for your flock?

 

[Ponyiqandhens2]

This is going to be difficult and probably expensive.

Because of my wife's serious illness, she has to avoid all estrogen mimicking foods, including soy and flaxseed. Yes, this applies to eggs from soy fed chickens too. We tried and checked that.

Because of mine and my kids gluten sensitivity, we have to avoid all gluten foods and that unfortunately applies to eggs. We can no longer eat our own eggs and have verified this particular sensitivity via IGG tests. Folks who buy our eggs love them. I can't stand them

For the past 5-6 years I have been feeding our flock of 15-60 chickens (depending on particular year) a non-GMO feed sold in nearby Amish community store. But then our health problems started and I actually looked at the label for the first time. And of course, soy is the #1 ingredient.

Owner of the store is willing to customize as small as a 1/4 pallet batch of feed for me and gave me the list of available ingredients (all organic and obviously non-GMO). Unfortunately, from that list only peas have more than 16% protein and I recall watching Justin Rhodes video suggesting that peas cannot make more than 10% of total recipe. Don't remember why.

Here is what I can use (that to my best knowledge doesn't mimick estrogen and is gluten free):
- ground corn
- kelp granules
- ground oats
- peas
- ground whole sunflower seeds
- fish meal
- enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

I use corn in a deer feeder 3-4 times a day at 2 seconds run to activate the flock and have them go out and forage. Not sure about having it in the feed, especially in the summer.

I have read varying suggestions on amount of kelp. It's expensive. 4-5% max?

Oats are pretty high in fat, so can't go crazy with it, right? Unfortunately I don't have another choice.

Peas - is 10% max correct? Using this mill/store, I have to use way more than 10%.

Ground sunflower seeds - fairly high in protein but crazy high in fat

Fish meal - I was told 5% max, to avoid fishy egg smell, while having best possible omega 3's. Also, very, very expensive

Enzyme supplement - it would only be 1lb per 750lb batch, not sure about the price yet.

Is it doable using this list?

Here is the best I can do:
~5% kelp granules
~54% ground oats
~33% peas
~2% ground whole sunflower seeds
~5% fish meal
~1% enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

I have free choice oyster shells and grit always available, along with fresh water.

Adds up to about 17.6% protein and just under 4% of fat, at about $24 per 50lb bag, but before mixing and bagging fee. That's it. No soy mash, no flax, no oils. But it seems that a lot of ingredients present in commercial feeds are missing.

What say you? I appreciate all help here.

Here is a really good article on oats,it breaks things down extensivel
In horses whole oats are considered good fiber low to moderate protein and low fat content

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods/oats#vitamins-and-minerals

 

[Guppy7]

I have been using New Country Organics wheat free for a lil over a year now. I am anaphylactic to wheat/gluten. I was so happy when I found this! (I was having to mask up put on gloves and glasses just to feed the girls with the Scratch and Peckfeed.) My chickens don’t like the corn in the feed and there was a lot of dust left after feeding so I’m now fermenting it and now they do eat more of it. I would love it if I could make my own since it’s costing me 75$ for 50# bag shipped to my house. I looked into doing this but was overwhelmed by all the dos and don’ts and I just want a feed that is super healthy organic non-gmo and they will eat. I love being able to come on here for help advice and encouragement. Have a blessed day!

 

[Altairsky]

Not sure if it's helpful, but I give my birds hempseed for extra protein. No idea if they contain phytoestrogen but as far as I know, they shouldn't.

 

[The Good Grumble]

I have been using New Country Organics wheat free for a lil over a year now. I am anaphylactic to wheat/gluten. I was so happy when I found this! (I was having to mask up put on gloves and glasses just to feed the girls with the Scratch and Peckfeed.) My chickens don’t like the corn in the feed and there was a lot of dust left after feeding so I’m now fermenting it and now they do eat more of it. I would love it if I could make my own since it’s costing me 75$ for 50# bag shipped to my house. I looked into doing this but was overwhelmed by all the dos and don’ts and I just want a feed that is super healthy organic non-gmo and they will eat. I love being able to come on here for help advice and encouragement. Have a blessed day!

Texas naturals has layer and starter crumble, Milo peanut, oat, alfalfa and fish meal. My birds love it. They have beautiful feathers, great body condition. I use the elite and it’s non gmo

Not sure where you’re located, but they also have an offshoot called Southern Naturals. Same composition.

I ferment as well and the birds love it.