Help needed customizing low estrogen and gluten free feed

[NatJ]

https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)40459-6/fulltext

Picograms - its not much. Certainly less than the phytoestrogen levels of some plants.

But you are right, generally not cost effective. OP is already looking to use fish meal as an animal protein source (and can go up to 10% with most not commenting on a perceptible "fishy" odor or taste component - see Justin Rhodes' recipe as example - though the industry recommendation is currently not more than 5%), but has already noted its expensive. Beef is around 75-80% water, so that 80/20 ungraded roast is really only around 16% protein by weight, and likely $6/lb...

When I said "meat," I didn't really mean the expensive nice stuff that people eat. I was thinking of some kind of meat meal, or venison from cleaning out a hunter's freezer, or something like that. When people butcher chickens or other animals, there are some parts that chickens can eat but people do not want to, and those might also be used to provide some of the protein for the flock.

If there is a reason to limit the fish meal (taste), then some kind of meat could be one possibility for making up the remaining protein the chickens need.

But if meat were to have too much estrogen, then there would be no reason to go looking for cheap sources, so I figured checking that would be the first step.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes,blood meal is a possiblity. Sadly, still pricy

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

1) It's not an allergy.

2) Empirical evidence beats published research. I really would like to avoid a discussion on this. It is what it is.

3) You are correct, I actually found little more info about it last night, when I finally had some time to look into phytoestrogens.

So sunflower seeds are out...

Here is updated recipe sans sunflower seed (with values I am using), for your critique:

~5% kelp granules (8%p - 0%f)
~56% ground oats (11%p - 4%f)
~33% peas (23%p - 1.4%f)
~5% fish meal (65%p - 9%f)
~1% enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

Resulting in about 17.5% protein and 3.2% fat, at about $23.60 per 50# bag, before mixing and bagging fees.

(BTW, nutritional goal is at least 17.5% protein and 3% fat. I can increase the fat in the winter for dosing more corn from the deer feeder or feeding scratch corn)

I will try to get some more solid info about the actual ingredients they offer, although it might be hard to get verified value numbers. I also plan to stop at another mill to check what they can mix for me and if at all.

Thanks for New Country Organics link. Looks pretty good, except for flaxseed and vegetable oils. Probably the best commercial feed I have seen so far. I am still uneducated on how much phytoestrogens is in alfalfa and some other foods.

I wonder how palatable it is for chickens, not being ground. I feed my chickens using layer mash in large garbage bin with 3" PVC elbows mounted through the holes and pointed down to the bottom of the bin (couple inches from the bottom) - I think there are 5 or 6 of them in 30gal bin. They can't see what they eat, so hopefully larger pieces would be ok (that could be otherwise avoided).

Hello I wonder if Pearl Millet would fill some gaps or increase something of lacking. Great nutrition fat and calcium and methionine too.

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

Hello I wonder if Pearl Millet would fill some gaps or increase something of lacking. Great nutrition fat and calcium and methionine too.

Hello And sprinkle a little bit of Finger Millet, calcium 344mg/gm for layers maybe?

 

[badgeroo]

Alfalfa was the first thing I checked. It has phytoestrogen. So do clovers.

Is your feed store willing to add other options if you supply them?

Or you could feed some things alongside the milled feed and adjust the milled ration accordingly.

If so, you might consider:
Buckwheat
Red sorghum
Quinoa

Potatoes
Carrots
Squash

Please confirm for yourself whether any are safe for your wife.

And screenshots of research papers about levels of estrogenic compounds in fruits and vegetables. I thought they might be helpful.

Apologies for being away for few days. Lots of things broke down and I am the only one to fix them.

I talked to the local mill where we used to buy feed more than 10 years ago and they are willing to mix even a small batch (500lbs/10 bags) and the fee comes up to about $2 for mixing and $2 for bagging, per bag.

They said they can get mostly anything available on the market and in addition to that I can also bring my own bags. This opens things up, right?

I don't have a definitive list of grains and ingredients and their phytoestrogenic content. Still looking - if anyone here knows about one, please link it here.

Looking at your list - I found buckwheat listed as high estrogen food. We actually used to eat quite a lot of it, as replacement to potatoes which have impact on insulin resistance.

Sorghum - I would like to avoid it after reading several stories of impacted egg production. The best I remember, since sorghum comes from New Zealand and was isolated from the rest of the globe for the longest time, american chickens don't have enough variety of enzymes to properly digest it. Please school me on this if you have better info.

Quinoa - can't find any numbers yet, might be good.

Thanks for the screenshots - the whole ordeal might actually mean finding ingredients with least amount of phytoestrogens, and not completely estrogen free foods.

 

[badgeroo]

Also, any idea what kind of peas they are using?

The mill that said they can mix mostly anything said it's "field peas"

 

[badgeroo]

I wonder if meat could be used as a protein source? I have no idea about estrogen content there, and unfortunately meat tends to be more expensive than soy and the other common high-protein legumes, so it would definitely call for a bit of research.

Excellent idea and I already started researching soldier fly larvae farming totes. This would be seasonally only, unless I find something that can be raised indoors without much hassle (including smell,etc.)

 

[badgeroo]

OP is already looking to use fish meal as an animal protein source (and can go up to 10% with most not commenting on a perceptible "fishy" odor or taste component - see Justin Rhodes' recipe as example - though the industry recommendation is currently not more than 5%), but has already noted its expensive. Beef is around 75-80% water, so that 80/20 ungraded roast is really only around 16% protein by weight, and likely $6/lb...

Are you sure on 10% fish meal? Yes, it's expensive but it might be cheaper to do x amount of fish meal vs 4x amount of something else, for the same end result in protein %

 

[badgeroo]

Hello I wonder if Pearl Millet would fill some gaps or increase something of lacking. Great nutrition fat and calcium and methionine too.

From brief wikipedia search it looks like just under 13% of protein, so it's better than most US-based grains. Not sure how widely available it is in US and if chickens native to US can fully digest it.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

The mill that said they can mix mostly anything said it's "field peas"

Field Peas, thank you. That means cow peas, purple hulled, black eyed, etc. Things usually cooked southern -style and creamy, not winter peas, etc. Makes a big significant difference in the AAs and the allowed inclusion rates.