Help! Sick flock! Is this Marek's Disease?

[orplove]

Hi Everyone! I am really hoping someone can help me as I am new to chickens this year. I have 10 birds that approximately 3 months old in a flock together. Seven are blue/black/splash Orpingtons and three are Comets. Two of the blue Orpingons are starting to have issues with their feet and legs. Neither can walk at this point and they seem to be scooting around on their hocks backwards. Someone in the flock has brown, runny poop. As far as i know, they were not vaccinated for Mareks or any other disease, which i am now really regretting! All of the birds have been eating and drinking well. (I put the two having issues right next to the food and water and they do really well) The birds are housed on wood shavings. The cockerel who is having issues has always been the biggest bird in the flock since he was a chick and was always a little uncoordinated i think. The pullet was fine until a couple of days ago.( she acted completely normal) I think all of the birds with the exception of the Comets have been sneezing a bit and making a barking coughing noise, but not all the time. The respirations and breathing is a little elevated i think... Does anyone think this is Mareks? What can i do for them? Am i going to lose my whole flock? Do i need to put the two birds who are semi-paralyzed down? Help! I really love these birds and i am so upset that they are sick!
This is the pullet

This is the cockerel

 

[Judy]

I don't know what is wrong. But do look over this thread, which has some recommendations for neurological problems from some of the experts on here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=204224&p=1

Don't give up; your birds may recover. Marek's is everywhere, and the vaccine does not protect against all the strains of it.

 

[threehorses]

A deficiency in B12 is often responsible for curled-toe paralysis. That would explain multiple birds having the same problem. There could be other deficiencies, too, so I would treat mainly with a B-spectrum vitamin and E/selenium as E/selenium will help with neurological healing if that's what is needed.

it's going to be very important to make sure they keep eating and drinking well. Then evaluate your feed. At 3 months, they should be getting 95% of their daily diet from a completely fortified "grower" or "starter grower". It's possible that the feed you have wasn't fresh, was incorrectly made, or has been stored wrong. I'd start by buying a new bag. it's possible that they have an underlyingn respiratory problem and that fighting it has caused them to need more nutrition than they're getting from the feed, or that the nutritional deficiency made them more susceptible to illness. We'll never know.

But if they're barking, it's possible that they have something viral. Can you hear wheezing with their breath? Any exudate or crustiness from their eyes? Anyone have runny eyes?


I would recommend the following:

First, a new bag of food - make sure when you open it that it smells STRONGLY of fresh ingredients. Check the date on the bag to make sure it's in date. Look at the quality of the bag to make sure it's not dusty and doesn't look old.

Very important: the selenium in the E/selenium pill should be LESS THAN 50 MICROgrams. The E can be around 400-700 IU - just make sure that the selenium is less than 50 micrograms. A whole tablet per adult, a half tablet per chick.

On the B vitamins, you will want a B-spectrum vitamin and/or dried yeast probiotic products. You can likely pick up a b-complex vitamin when you go to pick up the E-selenium at the store.

I wouldn't put them down because, if it's nutritional, you can try to treat it. It doesn't sound like Mareks to me.

I'd try that starting tomorrow and then evaluate this respiratory thing. It wouldn't hurt to get a thing of Sulmet and a think of Tylan or LS50 from the feedstore to have on hand. Or even Duravet, though I put less faith in it than some of the other antibiotics.

 

[orplove]

Thank you so much for your advice! I will definitely try the selenium and vitamin supplement. As far as their food goes they are on a grower diet made by a company called Poulin; It is supposed to have a good reputation and be made with quality products. Prior to that they were on a medicated chick starter.
I hope this is not a stupid question, but since i have never given the vitamin and E-Selenium, i am not sure how to administer them? Is it something that goes in the water?
I forgot to mention previously that I am treating them with a Sulfadimethoxine product. I figured it wouldn't hurt to treat for secondary infections; but i guess thats not going to help with viral.
Do you know what could have caused the vitamin deficiency? Is it something i am doing wrong with them? I Love my birds and just want the best life for them, so if i need to change something i am doing, i am more than willing. I have had horses for years, and they seem easy to me know compared to my feathered friends...

 

[orplove]

"But if they're barking, it's possible that they have something viral. Can you hear wheezing with their breath? Any exudate or crustiness from their eyes? Anyone have runny eyes?"


I forgot to mention that they have no crustiness or excretion from their eyes. The eyes look great! They do wheeze a bit, especially after activity. (running away from me when trying to catch them)

 

[dlhunicorn]

I am wondering if indeed this isnt due to deficiencies... you give no info on their diet nor housing and free ranging conditions ... all of these factors can be interralated but the primary concern for me is the deficiencies and as all vitamins are interelated (and so the ratio of the one to the other can also have a big impact I suggest you get a daily complete formulation supplement in addition to a specific supplement to give to deal with this possible complicating factor).
First off I would gget the Polyvisol Enfamil formulation (no extra iron > this is a childrens liquid vitamin > give four drops in beak each day for a week then taper off the next ) I am suggesting it at a higher dosage than is normally given on this formula as the birds are a bit older and rest assured even with the other supplement I am suggesting there is not a risk of toxicity levels from my information.
Get AviaCharge 2000 (you can order this from McMurry Hatcheries) this is a complete daily formulation supplement (poultry) especially suitable for this situation. If getting this particular supplement is going to be a problem (it is not the cheapest but one of the most complete I know of in a daily formulation suitable for organic certified AND provides all the micronutrients that most other supplements do not provide) then look at your feed store for a rooster booster or other GENERAL supplement (so not one to deal with a specific deficiency ) ... again my preference goes to the aviacharge.
Get some WHEATGERMOIL and give a tsp-a tbspoon through the feed... you may need to give an additional vitB complex vitamin supplement (look at your petstore) if the curled foot/toes are still a problem once you are no longer giving the polyvisol (look for a B complex supplement in the bird section of the pet store)
Dependent on this second (general) supplement which you will need to give at least once a week for the next few months (look to see what the vitE and selenium content is (if any > sometimes though there are supplements which have the "wrong" type of selenium in it or for other species who need a higher dosage > selenium toxicity can cause the very symptoms you are treating for)... dependent on this and the severity of the neurological symptoms (please provide more info on this) then you could give an additional one time supplement of vitE/selenium if you are reporting that there are neurological symptoms (I do not particularly see this? > if not then the wheatgermoil should be sufficient) > neurological symptoms would be tremors... walking backwards... flicking of the head back or not being able to control the head properly when attmepting to drink or eat (aiming and missing) > IF you are seeing these symptoms then a vitE/selenium supplement in addition to the above would be indicated...Please keep in mind the following when purchasing this:
There are two forms of selenium... the tab (human) is the easiest (and the cheapest) and the correct one will come in a GELtab meaning when you p r i c k it open there is a oily substance which comes out... you can put that into the birds beak direct.
The sodium selenite is the form used in the dry tablets usually and you do NOT want to use this as birds cannot utilize it properly and well to keep things simply , you just want to avoid this form of selenium... (this is also often used in the horse supplements etc.)
aVOID this form of selium for birds. When you get the human geltab vitE/selenium combo with the oily contents it is always the correct form of selenium (yeast and not mineral) > just double check that it is not saying more than 50 MICROgrams in each tab ... (it is usually 50) I know walmart and kmart and several drugstores carry this supplement > last time I looked it was like 5 dollars or so for a whole bottle (great supplement for us humans so money not wasted). The DRY pills usually are using the wrong form of selenium so get the geltabs.

 

[threehorses]

Walmart (the vitamin section) is also where I found the NON iron formula of the polyvisol (after checking a couple of grocery stores with no success).

To answer your question about 'why' by the way, it could be several things (not having the full load of information).

First, sometimes storage of the feed causes vitamins to degrade. Usually that's more the oil-vitamins (A, D, E) though the feeds are supplemented to make up for normal degradation. But if the feed store isn't storing them in cool conditions, or turning them over quickly enough, etc, then they can still degrade. This can also happen in our homes if we don't use the feed quickly enough or store them correctly. I always smell the feed immediately when I open it to make sure I smell a strong smell of fresh wholesomeness. If it smells like cardboard, my eyebrows go up.

Second, sometimes lines of birds or individuals can be less able to absorb, or were improperly nourished in the egg. If they start like this, then as time goes on the deficiency (which might always have been present) can increase to where you see symptoms.

Because you've seen this in more than one bird, I'd treat the whole flock as dlhunicorn is suggesting definitely for the period she recommends - even if you see the symptoms cease before.

So don't feel too bad about it happening - just try to correct it.

By the way, on the food, I'm not familiar with it. What does the label say about its fortification, etc?

 

[orplove]

I thank you Threehorses, Dlhunicorn, and ddawn for all of your advice and quick responses. I administered the first dose of the Polyvisol Enfamil tonight. (that was an interesting process

) and the AviaCharge 2000 is on order. I haven't been able to locate wheatgerm oil yet, so i guess i will have to order that online too.
To answer your questions dlhunicorn, I do not think that the birds are acting neurological at all. They have no problems eating, no flicking head or tremors.... their toes are just curled so they seem to backpedal instead of going forward. So based on your information, i do not need to give Selenium then, right?
As far as their housing goes, they live in a 10x12 stall with a small run. I do not free range at this time as i am not ready to turn them out in the electric poultry net with my other birds (4 buff Orps and a black sex link) which are 8 months old and cranky with newcomers...and its a long story as to why i don't free range outside of netting, but it goes something like... old house, lead paint, birds always in the road, almost attacked by a dog, etc etc. I tried that route and it didn't work out so well.
As far as their diet goes, they get the grower pellet, free choice grit, DE, and Oyster shell, and fruit and veggies as i have them. I was reading some other posts and it seems like i should expand their diet more, but i will post that question in another topic.

I am still worried about the occasional bark and respirations. I wonder if i should speed up the free range netting process for them to get them out of the barn more and outside. They have a horse for a next door neighbor, so i wonder if the ammonia bothers them. I clean her stall every day, but the odor is still strong in the am.

Threehorses;
Thanks, you mad me feel slightly better about fixing their issue! I do know that it takes me a while to go through a 50 lb bag of grain...so maybe it is going bad. I will try getting smaller bags so it stays fresher. Poulin is a New England grain made in Vermont i think. Here is the link.

http://www.poulingrain.com/

Thanks again all of you for your help. I will keep you posted as to how they are doing.

 

[threehorses]

For the wheatgerm oil, I usually find mine at our feedstore. Or a health food store, better yet.

As for their diet, I think it's fine. If you want to give treats, then give ones that have a purpose - healthy treats like the yogurt, perhaps the good green feeds, but really most of their diet should be exactly as you have said.

I do agree with getting them out more into your safe way of doing it - of course fresh air > barn air, but living birds not attacked by dogs in barn air > fresh air and danger.

And yes - it's entirely possible about the ammonia. I would highly suspect that, having horses of my own. Maybe try using StallDry in the mare's stall?

On the feed, I try to aim for what I can use in 2-4 weeks, not longer unless it's ordered right from the mill. That way I know (and can smell) that the ingredients are still working in the feed. And really you shouldn't feel bad. It's obvious that you're trying and there are just some mysterious issues at hand. Just keep trying to improve and learn all you can. That's what it's all about. I'm glad I helped you to feel better. That makes my day.

Yes, do please keep us posted! Thank you.

 

[Glenda L Heywood]

well the fact that you feed grains makes me wonder if they do get enough of the good things
Have they ever had the vitamins and minerals given chickens?

just feeding grains is not a full diet and vitamin need for chickens

I am a great believer in the

wet mash probiotics with the Vit Eand Vit B complex, calcium and Vit D the bird needs riboflavin as that is what the curled feet need
I think some selemium as the lady told you is for the bird
can be used if using the kind she said to

absorbing the Vit E & Vit B complex, calcium, Vit D to help their nervous system and correct the curled toes
also use 2 tbsp of ACV to gallon of water for all the birds
except when using medication in the water

FROM

curled toe paralysis: Definition from Answers.com
curled toe paralysis A disease of chickens caused by a nutritional ... The toes are curled inwards or under and the chicken has to stand and walk on its ...
www.answers.com/topic/curled-toe-paralysis - Cached - Similar


curled toe paralysis


Veterinary Dictionary: curled toe paralysis

Home > Library > Animal Life > Veterinary DictionaryA disease of chickens caused by a nutritional deficiency of riboflavin. A complete deficiency of the vitamin causes early mortality before the deformity develops. The toes are curled inwards or under and the chicken has to stand and walk on its hocks. See also crooked toe disease.


You can get wheat germ oil pure not blended from

Smith Poultry & Game Bird Supply

14000 W. 215th St., Bucyrus, KS 66013-9519

Ph. 913-879-2587 - 7:30 A. M. - 3 P. M CST Monday-Friday

24-hour Fax. 913-533-2497

also I would use this method of feeding the vit's to the chickens


also use
2 tbsp of ACV per gallon of water to utilize the vit's into the body

here is my advise to use for either one of you all's birds


here is what to do
isolate her
then feed her twice a day for two weeks this
for her needs for nerve damage and her body needs
each chicken this amt
chickens with nutritional needs often do not recover but give it a good try

WET MASH MEDICATED/VIT'S
3 tbsp of dry crumble feed
4 tbsp of milk any kind
1 tbspoon of yougart
1- Vit D tablet crushed ( smallest dosage)
1- calcium tablet crushed ( smallest dosage)
1-1000 mg Vit E cut tip off capsule and sqeeze it into the wet mash
1 Vit B complex crushed and put in the wet mash

mix all good
now put 1 tbsp of applesauce on top so she likes the wet mash

feed this twice a day for two weeks
when cleaned up in 30 minutes clean wet boewl and restock the dry feed

in her water give her 1 tbsp of ACV to qt of water
at all times
so she gets the Calcium and Vit D plus Vit E,vit Bcomplexshe needs in her system

any questions just email me and I will try and help you