Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[thedragonlady]

The last picture is a nice hen. I can see improvement on the length of the back (more space for eggs). Looks like you have some improvement in size.

I feel like a rouge when I say this. But no one should use a SOP when breeding chickens. There is no need to have one when you work with your hands.

If you are going to show, you had better refer to the Standard often. Notice the better comb, reduced fluff , greater depth of color, and better topline on the pullet in the second photo.She will beat her mother, the first pullet, in the showroom.

 

[call ducks]

Quote:
Indeed. Among the old poultry people they kept one or two breeds (on average) so their was no need to have a book chalked full of breeds that they don't need to know about. Further more people started young and worked with mentors their whole life passing information on orally not written. And then we get to farmers a very smart group. Smart enough to know that breeding for the 1% of the genetics of a chicken was not smart ( so breeding just for the phenotype). No one needs to (and in my opinion) should use a the 'holly bible' of birds when breeding chickens. Instead they should focus on the traits that made the bird popular to begin with. Barred rocks were not popular with farmers because they were a fast growing purebred. Barred rocks (and other barred or cuckoo birds) were popular with farmers because they could throw what ever they wanted to. This is what made the Barred rock popular.

Don Shaver one of the best poultry breeders in the world said the best set of tools you can have is your hands. While he bred production birds this still applies to heritage breeds. Once you get to know what a good bird feels like you can't forget it. My eyes are the last thing I use when assessing a bird. And it works. It is a way of doing things that is getting lost.

Things like comb points in the large scale of things are superficial. If I have a hen with +/- a few points on her comb but she has a great egg laying type to her shes going in the breeding pen. The best thing about hens is they will choose the rooster they mate with and having more roosters in your flock promotes heather offspring hens are very promiscuous...

I totally disagree with that you need an SOP to breed a bird that can win. My mentor may have a SOP but I doubt it. She has birds in her flock that would give many english class birds a good run for there money in APA shows, she lost patience with the poultry fanciers (or maybe vice versa) so did not end up showing them. She does not select for the 1% but for the other 99% that built the breed.

When I talk to new people I always suggest they look for books/references from the 1800's-1900's. Again your hands are the best tool you can have and a breeder that can use. And an SOP is no substitution.

I don't own one - nor do I want to.

 

[gjensen]

I would to see this thread stay in line with what Bob intended.

 

[Arielle]

I would to see this thread stay in line with what Bob intended.

I'm sure that it will. Other ideas have been presented in the past on this thread, and there is value in hearing another point of view, if only to strengthen one's own perspective. I know not everyone that contributes to this thread follows the same methods.

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
What????
Quote:
Don't know who he is. There's a difference between breeding for production & breeding for show if you see the 2 as mutually exclusive. I think that show breeders would do well to pay more attention to productivity but I'm not at all sure that has anything to do with whatever it is you're trying to say. Some breeds do have an identifiable "feel" but there's more to evaluating the breed for show than just the feel.

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Again, don't know who you're referencing. Since she doesn't show I guess we'll never know about that run for their money thing. That 1%/99% thing is just silly.



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Yor're free to disagree but you're completely wrong. Hopefully, no beginning fanciers will take you seriously & set their progress back.
People like you puzzle me. You freely admit you don't show or breed to show yet you feel you know more about it than people who do. I can't help but wonder where that kind of ego driven thinking comes from.

 

[3riverschick]

The bantams down-to-date. A detailed description ... .
By : Joseph Shakespeare, one of the foremost Bantam Authorities,
Poultry Expert and Lecturer, Editor of The Poultry Item's Ban-
tam Department, Poultry Editor of "The People," contributor
to the "Encyclopedia of Poultry," and other American, Eng-
lish and Canadian Poultry Publications.
Published 1925
Pages 19 and 20 .
http://tinyurl.com/ljyz4fm
What "Strain" Means
"Before entering on the subject relating to the various
breeds of Bantams and their production the writer will,
for the benefit of the unenlightened novice, pen a few
words in respect to "strain" and what the meaning of
such a phrase is.
The meaning of the word "strain" is not easily made
understandable, by simple definition, to the embryo Ban-
tam enthusiast, but the following illustration may suffice
to do so. Two would-be Bantam keepers take up a breed,
say, Brahmas. Their birds are procured from the same
breeder and are all of one strain. The object of the one
man is to produce stock for exhibition, whilst the object
of the other man is to produce stock capable of laying
plenty of eggs. Each individual will operate on different
lines, as the one will choose for the breeding pens such
birds as conform to the show standard, whilst the other,
ignoring show points, will breed only from birds with
good egg-producing records to their credit.
Each of the breeders referred to has a special object
in view, and by careful selection of breeding stock year
after year, each one eventually realizes that object. At
the end of, say five years, were we to visit the yards
of the two Bantam men referred to, we should see two
distinct types of stock, all of the same blood, and yet of
two totally different strains. The one class of stock
would be of an exhibition strain, and the other of an
egg-producing strain.
There are among many stocks of exhibition Bantams
what are known as cockerel breeding strains and pullet
breeding strains, it being next to impossible to produce
both show cockerels and show pullets from the same
stock birds. Special mating must be resorted to to pro-
duce winning males, and the same applies to the pro-
duction of birds of the opposite sex. Thus again, there
are two distinct strains.
But even where double mating is not necessary to
produce show birds it is often fatal to fuse the blood of
one man's strain of birds with that of birds belonging to
another strain. The writer's advice to the would-be
successful Bantam breeder is, get breeding stock of a
good strain, and keep the latter to itself as long as it is
possible to produce rearable chicks. It is "strain" and
not "'breed," that counts in the reproduction of either
high class utility or exhibition stock."

 

[3riverschick]

This is a great little book. I owned a copy years ago. Mine said it was published in 1891. Tho that date seems to have disappeared out of the online biblio now. This classic covers many species. For me, it's main value was in explaining the symbiotic relationship between the "fancy" breeder and the "utility breeder" , found in the chapter on Breeding to Type. Two sides of the same coin. I found used copies in the booksearch databases for under 10.00 . Years ago, I had KirtasBooks digitize a softcover copy for me. At that time they told me that because I had, the tome was now digitized and would be available for download purchase for 1.99 Well, last week I emailed KirtasBooks and they said they have ended their digitize-on-demand department last year. Oh nuts. So I have emailed them, asking of the already purchased books are still available for purchase. We'll see what they say in reply.
Best,
Karen
----------
THE THEORY AND PRACTICE OF BREEDING TO TYPE - ITS APPLICATION TO THE BREEDING OF DOGS, FARM ANIMALS, CAGE BIRDS AND OTHER SMALL PETS. By C.J. Davies. A VINTAGE DOG BOOKS CLASSIC REPRINT. Originally published in 1928, this scarce early work on breeding to type is both expensive and hard to find in its first edition. VINTAGE DOG BOOKS have republished it, using the original text and photographs, as part of their CLASSIC BREED BOOKS series. The author was a highly respected breeder of his day who states: - "Breeding to type is the business of every farmer and fancier. No matter whether the breeder is dealing with show or merely useful stock, he is always consciously or unconsciously selecting and breeding for certain definite qualities which please his eye or promise to increase the value of the stock in which he is interested." The book's one hundred and eight pages consist of ten comprehensive chapters including six full page photos. Chapters deal with: - Breeding to Type. - False Doctrines. - Pedigree. - Modern Heredity. - Mendelism. - Establishing a Strain. - Inbreeding. - Methods of Mating. - Colour. - Heredity and Disease. - Early Maturity. - Sterility. Etc. Also included are a Breeders Table and a Table of Breeding Data. Breeding to type comes within the province of a great number of animal and bird fanciers, and is a subject upon which so many erroneous ideas are held. The author successfully attempts within these pages to place before breeders of every class of animal the rules which govern the production of standard types. Many of the earliest dog books, particularly those dating back to the 1900s and before, are now extremely scarce, and increasingly expensive. VINTAGE DOG BOOKS are republishing these classic works in affordable, high quality, modern editions, using the original text and artwork.

 

[Fentress]

When I talk to new people I always suggest they look for books/references from the 1800's-1900's. Again your hands are the best tool you can have and a breeder that can use. And an SOP is no substitution.

The breeders on this thread also cite to reference material from the late 19th - early 20th century. A period of chicken keeping that I want to learn more about. Do you have any specific materials in mind that you would recommend.

Mark

 

[fowlman01]

When I talk to new people I always suggest they look for books/references from the 1800's-1900's. Again your hands are the best tool you can have and a breeder that can use. And an SOP is no substitution.

The breeders on this thread also cite to reference material from the late 19th - early 20th century. A period of chicken keeping that I want to learn more about. Do you have any specific materials in mind that you would recommend.

Mark

The APA Standard of Perfection has been around since 1874.

Walt

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Walt, Did you help out on the first Standard of Perfection.