Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[LeslieDJoyce]

@cpartist Thanks for the careful and thoughtful notes!

I agree I'm super lucky to have Rosanna's help. She has been amazing.

I also agree about not wanting to add more genes to this project line. I think it has a lot of potential, but it's young. It deserves a chance to mature and refine before it's messed with. And with all the possibilities in genetics from the original cross, the chances of getting to a "Superman" Delaware at F3 are/were slim. I started with F4s.

I think I'm getting some clues about how to look at pullets/cockerels for hints of the red that will show up later. For sure any pullet or cockerel with color gets culled. I do see that.

 

[gjensen]

What it reminds me of is the "Indian Rivers" cross, that is the bleed through. Where in subsequent generations this sort of bleed through persists. It does not surprise me that it predominates in the females.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

What it reminds me of is the "Indian Rivers" cross, that is the bleed through. Where in subsequent generations this sort of bleed through persists. It does not surprise me that it predominates in the females.

May I ask why it doesn't surprise you that it predominates in the females?

 

[neopolitancrazy]

And I am saying, respectfully, that it is not true. I did not want it to be a negative. I only thought of the many people that would read it and think that is what they had to do, and not even know how to do that. We would ask them in such a case, to learn two things. One that is multiform, and one that is not. One will only get you there, after you have been through the other and figured out you were going the wrong way.

You always want to go the most direct and sure route. I do not know much, but I am not going to try to get better tails by looking at their feet. I will select for better tails by selecting birds with better tails. If I am going to select for more eggs, the first thing I am going to do is start counting eggs.

That is not to say that there is never a link between one trait and another. There often is, but we need to be cautious in our observations. Links are not always links of necessity.

I remember reading that nugget from Mr. Blosl. My recollection is that he was focused on increasing egg production, first and foremost. When he had accomplished that, he realized he had simultaneously tightened up the feathering in his flock. He then deduced that egg production was somehow linked with close feathering, so he recommended others to do the same sort of prioritizing in their flocks.

Obviously, breeds with different genetic heritage may respond differently under the same selection pressures.

I am probably going to try this out in my own flock, as I really want to improve egg size and numbers in my Wyandottes. I would also prefer a sleeker bird to the fluffy ones I currently see in the yard.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[neopolitancrazy]

May I ask why it doesn't surprise you that it predominates in the females?

Possibly because recessive sex-linked traits will manifest in the hemizygous female offspring, while they would be cloaked in the heterozygous males?

that's my guess, anyway.
Angela

 

[neopolitancrazy]

BLRW project update:
The last time I posted about this, the "blue" family of offspring were pleasing while the "reds" were less so, and fully one-third of the red chicks exhibited genetically recessive disqualifying traits. I decided to never repeat the red mating, and swapped breeding partners to see what would happen next.

Since then, the blue dam did an "all-out, all-in" sort of molt and quickly resumed laying large eggs. The (cranky, irritatingly persistent broody,) red dam molted a few feathers at a time and when she resumed laying, her eggs are still only medium in size, and about 80% have had blood or meat spots in them. She will be coq au vin soon, and I will seek to obtain another female or two from my source breeder.

In the meantime, I will continue my at-home science project by test breeding the blue dam to the red sire, the blue dam to her son, and repeat breeding the blue dam and sire to increase my breeding flock.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Wow, that one sure does look like it should be some red-laced breed.

I was reviewing the supposed possible outcomes in the F2 generation of a Delaware re-creation project. I didn't see any "laced" possibilities. So the lacing look is interesting.

I found this in yet another Delaware genetics discussion thread here at BYC:

We're discussing e locus base color (the color underneath the silver and barring on Delaware). Y'see, chickens are kind of like cakes. They have a deeper cake color underneath the frosting

So, a Delaware is like a chocolate cake (eb) with white frosting (Silver). And there are Delaware cakes that are milk chocolate (wheaten), dark chocolate (eb), and, er, say, bittersweet (e+ or wild type). Delawares, according to most of what I've seen, are supposed to be dark chocolate underneath the frosting. But a lot are milk chocolate. And the chick in the picture is probably bittersweet (e+). You can sometimes tell, as Kris was saying, what kind of chocolate the cake is by looking at the color bleeding through the frosting (base color usually affects undercolor and chick down). But this doesn't always happen in predictable ways. I hope this makes sense

 

[gjensen]

I remember reading that nugget from Mr. Blosl. My recollection is that he was focused on increasing egg production, first and foremost. When he had accomplished that, he realized he had simultaneously tightened up the feathering in his flock. He then deduced that egg production was somehow linked with close feathering, so he recommended others to do the same sort of prioritizing in their flocks.

Obviously, breeds with different genetic heritage may respond differently under the same selection pressures.

I am probably going to try this out in my own flock, as I really want to improve egg size and numbers in my Wyandottes. I would also prefer a sleeker bird to the fluffy ones I currently see in the yard.

Best wishes,
Angela

I would not be surprised by any number of supposed links, but I also understand that it is not evidence of a necessary link. I would go as far to say that it is not. It is certainly not reason enough to go that route. The best route would still be the most direct route. If I am concerned with feather, I am selecting according to feather. If I am selecting for eggs, I am selecting according to eggs.

For example your remarks on egg size. The best way to select for egg size is for egg size. Setting a standard, and not hatching eggs below that standard. As the average improves, raise that standard accordingly.

Egg numbers is as simple if we can get accurate numbers from each pullet over the course of her first laying cycle. For those of us that cannot reliably trap nest, that is not as easy (or direct). But we also understand that there are a number of traits that come together to make a good layer. There is no secret good layer gene. And that is why I remarked that one is multiform. Selecting for a better layer in our setting and among our birds is really selecting for a number of traits that are proved in action.

Among exhibition fowl, my small experience has been that the lay rate (cycle) is generally acceptable. My largest concerns have been vigor, egg size, point of lay, timing of molt, and length of molt etc. etc. Their length of lay was the difference between an 160 egg pullet year, and a 180-200 egg pullet year. Then it is simple enough to identify the poorest layers in small pens. Removing them will help us maintain progress. There is nothing like using the poorest layers as breeders to help us go the wrong way. And to go beyond that, requires a very organized and specialized effort. One that is better suited for other fowl.

So to conclude (LOL) to select for both traits (one is a collection of traits), we really should select for both traits (or that collection of traits). To expect one will fix the other is asking for disappointment when one is achieved and the other is not.

And I am putting my money where my mouth is. My Catalana grading project originally included a soft feathered breed. I have had this loose feathering (to a progressively lesser degree) in each subsequent generation. I am certainly not going to wait an entire laying cycle to select for feathering. I am going to kill all of the loosely feathered birds that I need to before they ever get that far. One trait I can evaluate with my eyes early on, and the other compilation of traits I have to prove in action up until their first molt.

 

[gjensen]

BLRW project update:
The last time I posted about this, the "blue" family of offspring were pleasing while the "reds" were less so, and fully one-third of the red chicks exhibited genetically recessive disqualifying traits. I decided to never repeat the red mating, and swapped breeding partners to see what would happen next.

Since then, the blue dam did an "all-out, all-in" sort of molt and quickly resumed laying large eggs. The (cranky, irritatingly persistent broody,) red dam molted a few feathers at a time and when she resumed laying, her eggs are still only medium in size, and about 80% have had blood or meat spots in them. She will be coq au vin soon, and I will seek to obtain another female or two from my source breeder.

In the meantime, I will continue my at-home science project by test breeding the blue dam to the red sire, the blue dam to her son, and repeat breeding the blue dam and sire to increase my breeding flock.

Best wishes,
Angela

This is a good summary of some things that I like about this hobby. The doing. The rolling up our sleeves and figuring it out. Identifying problems. Figuring out problems. My expectations run high, and then they are tempered by something that I did not see coming. One day I have my head held high, and the next I am shaking my head.

This is really an at home science project. And an art project.

I like how you are starting, and that you can know them individually as well as you do.

 

[gjensen]

I was reviewing the supposed possible outcomes in the F2 generation of a Delaware re-creation project. I didn't see any "laced" possibilities. So the lacing look is interesting.

I found this in yet another Delaware genetics discussion thread here at BYC:

You get it.

The trick from here is what you do.