Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[warbirds]

warbirds! I didn't know you were here! Cool! I drool over your Lights. Tell me, are your Canadians from an English strain?
Happy New Year,
Karen

Hey Karen!
Thank you, Ma'am! I work at those Lights constantly.
I can't really say if those are from an English strain. The man I got my original birds from (who unfortunately passed away last year) had gotten them directly from a breeder in Ontario, who had been breeding them for years, or so the story goes. All I know for sure is it has been a long haul to get them to where they are starting to look correct again - size on that line has never been a problem, but correct feather patterns have been. Thankfully they are laying machines and with year-round hatching I've been able to bring them along nicely.

Happy New Year to you too!
Doc

 

[3riverschick]

Hey Karen!
Thank you, Ma'am! I work at those Lights constantly.
I can't really say if those are from an English strain. The man I got my original birds from (who unfortunately passed away last year) had gotten them directly from a breeder in Ontario, who had been breeding them for years, or so the story goes. All I know for sure is it has been a long haul to get them to where they are starting to look correct again - size on that line has never been a problem, but correct feather patterns have been. Thankfully they are laying machines and with year-round hatching I've been able to bring them along nicely.

Happy New Year to you too!
Doc

Hi Doc,
I got mine from Walt Boese in Deer Lodge , MT. Color is real nice. I wish I could
move the hackle a bit further up the neck on my males, tho. Nice wraparound on my male's hackles,
Tux's almost meets under his chin. Eggs are smaller, hoping that will increase with son to mother cross.
Have a real nice outcross hen here that cost me in trade my foundation cock whose sire was a
3x APA Grand Champion. She's a show winner, but I worry about strain crossing. I have 2 nice sons
of my foundation cock here and will breed her to them. My foundation cock was very prepotent for
himself and stamped himself on his sons. Doncha know I will be doing staggered hatches and
zip tying the shanks to make sure the chicks don't get mislabeled. It will be interesting to see the
differences in development as our other breedings will be son to dam; 3/4 bro ex 3/4 sis and full bro ex full sis.
Gonna be a lot of record keeping being done this Spring. that is why I am getting fairly frantic to figure out just
what to record and when.
Happy New Year, Doc!
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

Hi Doc,
I got mine from Walt Boese in Deer Lodge , MT. Color is real nice. I wish I could
move the hackle a bit further up the neck on my males, tho. Nice wraparound on my male's hackles,
Tux's almost meets under his chin. Eggs are smaller, hoping that will increase with son to mother cross.
Have a real nice outcross hen here that cost me in trade my foundation cock whose sire was a
3x APA Grand Champion. She's a show winner, but I worry about strain crossing. I have 2 nice sons
of my foundation cock here and will breed her to them. My foundation cock was very prepotent for
himself and stamped himself on his sons. Doncha know I will be doing staggered hatches and
zip tying the shanks to make sure the chicks don't get mislabeled. It will be interesting to see the
differences in development as our other breedings will be son to dam; 3/4 bro ex 3/4 sis and full bro ex full sis.
Gonna be a lot of record keeping being done this Spring. that is why I am getting fairly frantic to figure out just
what to record and when.
Happy New Year, Doc!
Best Regards,
Karen

Karen just record the results. Check them and mark them @ 8,12,16, and 24 wks. You will have your baseline and starting point established.

I am not a Sussex person, but I would guess that the later dates are the most relevant. They have always struck me as a fowl that they fattened for the market more than sold as young fryers. It seamed to be a fall market, and they were hatched in the spring.

Like Walt keeps saying, that all depends on how they are managed. You can push them, or hold them back. I like to get a feel for where my birds should be at a certain point. It takes me a year or two to get an idea. Then everything varies. We might stay cool longer, or get hot early. Might decide to rain every day for near a month, or be dry as a bone.
Often where my birds are at on any given point, has more to do with the environment and me. Just the location of a pen can effect the results of a batch compared to another.
The best I can do concerning selection is comparing birds in the same pen, that are the same age, and have the same conditions that year. I can feed them the same brand of feed from one year to another, but is the mix exactly the same? The parents might not be the same, and the weather could be vastly different.
Weather has more to do with the results than we often consider.

You probably have, but I wondered if you dug through any old English books on fattening fowl for the market? There are some re prints around.

 

[3riverschick]

Karen just record the results. Thank you for all this great info!

You probably have, but I wondered if you dug through any old English books on fattening fowl for the market? There are some re prints around.
Yes, I have read a bunch of them. But they only cover what happens after the higgler picks up the birds from the farmers. Not what happens from hatch to that moment.
Best,
Karen

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

One thing somewhat unique about the Langshan, among the dual purpose fowl, is the body shape is rather short, which you would not expect in a dual purpose breed noted for its egg production -- Instead, you would expect the Langshan to have a faster rate of growth & better meat production (and less egg longevity) like a Delaware, NH or Buckeye (and a egg breed would be long in the lateral process bone parts of their body like a RIR). This unique trait of the Langshan, as I understand it, is the breed should be broad and deep -- the Langshan depth should be about equal to its length of body making its total body capacity of width and depth achieving the same goal as a long bodied breed which has its capacity more in the rear -- a different shape achieving the same goal of heavy egg production. How is the egg producing longevity of the Langshan's body shape?

Sorry it took so long to respond! I don't actually have my own computer, only my cell phone and this involved a bit more than a few misspelled words.

As for the the laying abilities here is what I have noticed:

They lay more frequently than the Cochins or the Brahmas I have had, hardly ever have the fertility issues from too much fluff and I've never had to use AI on one yet. Of course, the males do tend to get a bit lazy into their 5th year and don't really take much interest in the females. My females have laid well into their 7th year but so far, they have not lived as long as my Minorcas. They have produced 10x the amount of eggs that any of my Minorcas could have ever hoped to produce. The Langshans produce, in my opinion, far more frequently and far longer than any other Asiatic breed and several in the Mediterranean classes that I have owned. The overall body shape, to me, is deceiving as the body is actually not short at all. It is indeed quite long however the tail angle and depth of the body offsets the appearance of a longer back. I prefer the longer backed birds and strive for them as they simply produce better. The deeper bodied birds produce more meat and from what I've seen, fat. But a nicely balanced bird will give both meat (not to the same standards as a Plymouth Rock and definitely not the same as a Cornish) but will also give eggs.

I also try to hold off maturity in my pullets and cockerels by restricting light. This allows their bodies to grow to their full potential. Once they reach their full body size, I am happy to give them some increased lighting to get that reproduction going. Often, I do not see any males with any amount of girth or weight on them until well into their 1st year and by that point I've already decided I'm keeping them as breeders. I've been lucky in that the males have started to maintain their weight throughout their growth period. But the pullets are a completely different story. I wouldn't think of even attempting to eat them until after 14 months or longer as they first build up their body to prepare for laying eggs and maintain a reproductive cycle.

Overall and out of most of the breeds I have ever raised, the most productive in terms of eggs has been the Langshans, both in bantam and largefowl. The bantam Speckled Sussex bring up a close second.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Their body is also longer than it appears due to the stance of the bird. Fast growing and Langshans have an...interesting relationship. You tend to either get lines that sprout like weeds but take forever to put on meat, or you get lines that take forever to grow. Either way, they aren't a "fast" breed like the New Hampshire or the Delaware, but should be quicker to mature than their asiatic compatriots the Brahma and Cochin. I know rodriguezpoultry and I disagree on this aspect, but I know with my past with the breed you can get a good carcass at 6 months and pullets laying before they turn 7 months. So about on par with a Rock or Red, maybe a couple weeks behind. You start pushing them faster you lose size. You are very correct about the wide and deep body, which is one of the challenges of the breed, an inattentive breeder can often find them becoming either broad and deep but short legged, or narrow and shallow with too long of legs. As far as laying longevity, hopefully others can chime in as well, but I found about a 5% drop in production a year, so comparable to other breeds.

As I've said in the Langshan club...it's a fine line! lol! I like to them to take their time and grow to their full potential slowly. No need in rushing a bird that will be amazing at age 2 instead of peaking at 9 months and then going downhill!

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Just curious Sarah. Why do you feel pressed to hatch eggs from pullets? From my experience, the rate of lay and the viability of the eggs can change dramatically after the first big molt or before.

I personally never hatch eggs from anything other than seasoned and proven hens. Not being critical...just curious.

Personally I will hatch from anything that I know is going to develop into what I want. Most of the pullets I can if they are what I want by their 7th month. Not a doubt in my mind how they will develop after that. If they don't have "it" then, then they won't get it and down they go to the sales area. Most of my pullets won't lay until 9 or 10 months of age at any rate and their eggs will already be the size of a seasoned hen. They will be paired with cocks or cockerels that already know what they are doing so the eggs will start off fertile.

 

[hellbender]

Personally I will hatch from anything that I know is going to develop into what I want. Most of the pullets I can if they are what I want by their 7th month. Not a doubt in my mind how they will develop after that. If they don't have "it" then, then they won't get it and down they go to the sales area. Most of my pullets won't lay until 9 or 10 months of age at any rate and their eggs will already be the size of a seasoned hen. They will be paired with cocks or cockerels that already know what they are doing so the eggs will start off fertile.

I didn't question the viability of the egg but rather the qualities of the hen, for whatever reason they are being bred. I fail to see how such important factors can be ignored simply for the purpose of hatching out chicks.

EDIT: I'm very happy you can predict what your stock will be like at maturity...A very rare art indeed. For my part, if a bird 'doesn't have it'...they go back into flock through their gizzards. I certainly wouldn't sell a cull to someone...but that's just me.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

I didn't question the viability of the egg but rather the qualities of the hen, for whatever reason they are being bred. I fail to see how such important factors can be ignored simply for the purpose of hatching out chicks.

EDIT: I'm very happy you can predict what your stock will be like at maturity...A very rare art indeed. For my part, if a bird 'doesn't have it'...they go back into flock through their gizzards. I certainly wouldn't sell a cull to someone...but that's just me.

So you would sell your top of the top birds to someone? Nobody should be selling their best birds. I only sell the birds that I would breed from but have their faults as breeders. Everything else goes as layers as they are pet quality. Only the best of my stock stays with me. I would never sell my best birds to anyone. Probably not for any amount. They are the basis for my future birds and would be worth more to me as a breeding bird that could produce hundreds of chicks than as a bird that would be given may $200. I would never charge anyone that amount for any bird, but if someone offers it...

It's not an art, it takes patience and knowing your breed. Anyone can do it with enough time and vision for their flock.

As for the qualities, if you know your breed and more importantly, the line you have been working with, you can simply know how they will continue to develop. When you start adding in extra lines, that is when you will have more difficulty in seeing the quality of the birds at an earlier age.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
So, is that pretty common in heritage line birds...late maturity? I'm trying to get a bead on if I even want to go down that road and I'm a little worried about only having 4-5 eggs per week and a hen that doesn't lay until almost a year old....if that is common with heritage breed lines I'm thinking it wouldn't be worth having them as working chickens in a flock. There are no shows in my area and no market for selling high bred but low production birds, so the reasoning behind putting time and money into heritage breeds isn't showing up as practical for the average person.

I've heard from a couple of the OT breeders and they were working for a different result but I'm wondering why everyone isn't working for a better production and early maturing on their birds? That would seem to be better for all purposes but particularly for developing a line.