Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[rodriguezpoultry]

Piet, you are doing amazingly well! I was referring to the generation that now uses "i c u" as an acceptable language in any written context.

 

[Beekissed]

The production bred birds will not be able to lay nearly as long (or have as long of a productive life) as a heritage breed. You will also lack the size in a production bird, however if you are only needing egg laying birds that pop out eggs every day for 6 months then are ready to start all over again, by all means get a production bird such as a production Leghorn.

Might want to check around though, even Production birds skip an egg every now and then and 4-5 eggs a week from a Leghorn from a hatchery after their 1st year is something that is not normally seen. So, while the production bird loses it's worth after 1 year, the heritage bred bird will, at the earliest, lose their worth as a laying-bird only at about 4 years or more. During which time they would have laid more eggs overall than any production bird.

That hasn't been my experience with hatchery birds at all, though I don't lean towards production breeds. I've had much better lay than that with DP breeds and for years past one year, with a finish carcass that would put many roosters of other breeds to shame on the hens. I guess it's all in the experience one has had with different breeds and genetics that colors their perceptions of those breeds and genetics, but I've had some really impressive laying, early maturity and carcass weights from just plain old DP hatchery genetics.

I guess what I'm trying to know is if this late maturing and low production is breed specific with heritage lines as it is with hatchery genetics or is it something that is overall to be expected out of most heritage line birds. For the most part, I've been eavesdropping on this thread and getting the impression that folks are quite pleased with 4-5 eggs per week and birds that don't lay until they are almost a year old. I'm curious as to why that isn't a focus of most breeders when developing a line and not just the focus of a few. I'd think that would determine a line's worth to have the total package of form and function within normal limits for that particular breed.

Or have I been spoiled by hatchery White Rocks and Black Australorps to the point that I expect too much from a heritage bird? I know it can be achieved because there are a few of you out there achieving that good combination, but am curious as to why that wouldn't be a general and foregone conclusion as a priority in the breeding of these dual purpose breeds?

 

[3riverschick]

Scholarly argument for animal protein in chicken feed. I just read the abstract
and look at illustrations and tables.The articles themselves most often are too
technical for me.
South African Journal of Animal Science Journal Home > Vol 43, No 2 (2013)
Growth responses, excreta quality, nutrient digestibility, bone development
and meat yield traits of broiler chickens fed vegetable or animal protein diets
MA Hossain, AF Islam, PA Iji
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/sajas/article/view/91745

 

[hellbender]

ha! That grammar will get us every time! At least you were able to catch it! THAT'S an art that is quickly losing any footing in this world.

I certainly hope that you are able to sell your very best birds once you do decide to sell. I'm sure whoever purchases them will be ecstatic.

Ha! You have a sense of humor. That's a good thing.

As for selling birds....In the last few days, my 'junior' partner has been angling/wheedling for me to sell a major component of our flock and I have acquiesced.

He will be in charge of all aspects of flock management ....including my forced labor and naturally, I will continue to pay the bills...

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

That hasn't been my experience with hatchery birds at all, though I don't lean towards production breeds. I've had much better lay than that with DP breeds and for years past one year, with a finish carcass that would put many roosters of other breeds to shame on the hens. I guess it's all in the experience one has had with different breeds and genetics that colors their perceptions of those breeds and genetics, but I've had some really impressive laying, early maturity and carcass weights from just plain old DP hatchery genetics.

I guess what I'm trying to know is if this late maturing and low production is breed specific with heritage lines as it is with hatchery genetics or is it something that is overall to be expected out of most heritage line birds. For the most part, I've been eavesdropping on this thread and getting the impression that folks are quite pleased with 4-5 eggs per week and birds that don't lay until they are almost a year old. I'm curious as to why that isn't a focus of most breeders when developing a line and not just the focus of a few. I'd think that would determine a line's worth to have the total package of form and function within normal limits for that particular breed.

Or have I been spoiled by hatchery White Rocks and Black Australorps to the point that I expect too much from a heritage bird? I know it can be achieved because there are a few of you out there achieving that good combination, but am curious as to why that wouldn't be a general and foregone conclusion as a priority in the breeding of these dual purpose breeds?

The reason I am pleased with waiting is because once my birds do reach maturity they are very large and I know they have reached their full potential as breeders. At this point, I am comfortable allowing them to begin to lay eggs which will redirect their nutrients from growth to reproduction. Once the bird is no longer useful as a breeder, I can either A. Let them live their lives at tick catchers or B. eat them as they are ridiculously sizeable as compared to any bird I could get anywhere. The males take a very long time to mature in my breed. However as others have stated, there are several breeds such as the New Hampshire Red that mature at 6-7 months.

I have had birds from hatcheries and most die before their 3rd year. Eggs from them become brittle and the egg shells weak, even when given a diet with increased calcium. They suffer more from internal layer and broken eggs inside of them. I have a few production birds but don't expect them to live any length of time and so far, they are doing no better at laying than my Langshans currently.

 

[3riverschick]

So you would sell your top of the top birds to someone? Nobody should be selling their best birds. I only sell the birds that I would breed from but have their faults as breeders. Everything else goes as layers as they are pet quality. Only the best of my stock stays with me. I would never sell my best birds to anyone. Probably not for any amount. They are the basis for my future birds and would be worth more to me as a breeding bird that could produce hundreds of chicks than as a bird that would be given may $200. I would never charge anyone that amount for any bird, but if someone offers it...

It's not an art, it takes patience and knowing your breed. Anyone can do it with enough time and vision for their flock.

As for the qualities, if you know your breed and more importantly, the line you have been working with, you can simply know how they will continue to develop. When you start adding in extra lines, that is when you will have more difficulty in seeing the quality of the birds at an earlier age.

Article: Alternatives To The Cornish Cross
http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/4-2/alternatives_to_the_cornish_cross/

By judicious selection of breeders, you might find you can get increases in weight gain and rate of growth in less time than you thought. Don Schrider managed an American Livestock Breeds Conservancy breeding project with the endangered Buckeye**. Careful breeder selection over a mere three generations achieved a reduction of grow-out to slaughter age from 19 to 20 weeks, down to 16 weeks, with an average increase of one pound live weight in the process. (And the increase in performance as a meat bird did not reduce levels of egg production in this traditional dual-purpose breed.) See http://www.albc-usa.org/downloads.html for information on selective chicken breeding.
(**Footnote: http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/ALBCchicken_assessment-1.pdf Excerpt: Width of skull, heart girth, flatness of back, and fleshing on breast are the most significant qualities to look for in the selection process with young birds. They are characteristics that all of the superior birds excel in. Typically, the birds that excelled in these traits at 8 weeks of age will remain the top birds at 16 weeks of age. )
-----------------------
Will Morrow of Whitmore Farm in Emmitsburg, Maryland, has been trying to restore Delawares as utilitarian meat fowl, a role they served before the “Cornish Cross revolution”—using the work of Don Schrider and ALBC as a template. Will has found as well that three years of selective breeding has resulted in significant gains in rate of growth and slaughter weight at 12 weeks without sacrificing performance of his Delaware hens as layers).
( Personally, I think it is a grievous error that he omitted the Sussex. Esp. the Light Sussex )
--------------
Matt John of Shady Lane Poultry Farm believes that the four traditional breeds with the most potential for selective improvement as meat birds are the true, original strains of Naked Neck, New Hampshire, Plymouth Rock (either White or Barred), and Delaware.
---------------------
“slower growing” broiler types. Such meat birds not only taste better (a longer growth curve yields better flavor—even a Cornish Cross will be tastier if slaughtered at 10 or 12 weeks rather than 6 or 8)
------
Karen and the personally offended

Light Sussex in western PA, USA

 

[hellbender]

Scholarly argument for animal protein in chicken feed. I just read the abstract
and look at illustrations and tables.The articles themselves most often are too
technical for me.
South African Journal of Animal Science Journal Home > Vol 43, No 2 (2013)
Growth responses, excreta quality, nutrient digestibility, bone development
and meat yield traits of broiler chickens fed vegetable or animal protein diets
MA Hossain, AF Islam, PA Iji
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/sajas/article/view/91745

Yep.

 

[Fentress]

So, is that pretty common in heritage line birds...late maturity? I'm trying to get a bead on if I even want to go down that road and I'm a little worried about only having 4-5 eggs per week and a hen that doesn't lay until almost a year old....if that is common with heritage breed lines I'm thinking it wouldn't be worth having them as working chickens in a flock. There are no shows in my area and no market for selling high bred but low production birds, so the reasoning behind putting time and money into heritage breeds isn't showing up as practical for the average person.

I've heard from a couple of the OT breeders and they were working for a different result but I'm wondering why everyone isn't working for a better production and early maturing on their birds? That would seem to be better for all purposes but particularly for developing a line.

You've gotten some good responses lately, to questions similar what I have asked in the not so distant past. My take on this is find a breeder you trust and a line that is productive and then breed with production as a priority. At least that is my game plan when I do pull the trigger on some new birds. If your interest is in having a true dual purpose bird, then this seems to be the way to go, but if you are thinking of this as a business, you probably won't have a market for "...high bred, but low production birds..." in your locality and that is exactly how the birds will be percieved, as low production, because they don't crank out 250-300 eggs per year. Even though I greatly appreciate these beautiful birds, and their history, if they don't perform, especially on the dinner table, then dual purpose is a failed concept and I will move on, to keeping a small layer flock and meat hybrids for the freezer.

 

[BGMatt]

That hasn't been my experience with hatchery birds at all, though I don't lean towards production breeds. I've had much better lay than that with DP breeds and for years past one year, with a finish carcass that would put many roosters of other breeds to shame on the hens. I guess it's all in the experience one has had with different breeds and genetics that colors their perceptions of those breeds and genetics, but I've had some really impressive laying, early maturity and carcass weights from just plain old DP hatchery genetics.

I guess what I'm trying to know is if this late maturing and low production is breed specific with heritage lines as it is with hatchery genetics or is it something that is overall to be expected out of most heritage line birds. For the most part, I've been eavesdropping on this thread and getting the impression that folks are quite pleased with 4-5 eggs per week and birds that don't lay until they are almost a year old. I'm curious as to why that isn't a focus of most breeders when developing a line and not just the focus of a few. I'd think that would determine a line's worth to have the total package of form and function within normal limits for that particular breed.

Or have I been spoiled by hatchery White Rocks and Black Australorps to the point that I expect too much from a heritage bird? I know it can be achieved because there are a few of you out there achieving that good combination, but am curious as to why that wouldn't be a general and foregone conclusion as a priority in the breeding of these dual purpose breeds?

4-5 eggs a week is an amazing number for a dual purpose fowl. Since you're used to hatchery stock what you don't realize is how small hatchery stock is. A true Plymouth Rock for example is almost twice the size of a hatchery bird, which resembles a Leghorn more than a Rock (probably because hatcheries have for years bred leghorn into other breeds to improve laying. This is why breed selection is important.

I don't understand the slow growth either. Our predecessors certainly couldn't afford to let birds grow out for almost a year before they got productive. As Walt said, his New Hampshires have the growth rate they should have, it's going to be up to the breeder. You also have to realize, and I'll try not to step on any toes, but there are very few serious breeders on BYC, the majority of people here view chickens as pets instead of livestock, and therefore are willing to put up with things that people who are breeding them for use as a food source primarily would never put up with. The ones that are serious aren't as accepting of slow growth and such, or have different definitions of "slow"

 

[Beekissed]

I agree, Fentress! At the bottom of the bottom of things, I'm pretty practical and I need a practical bird out back. I'm thinking my version of keeping to the middle of the road will be to breed the best layers that are also large and meaty birds and keep doing that until they are all large, meaty hens that lay like a champ, reproduce their own kind, are hardy to the max and can rustle their own grub for the better part of their meal. I'd breed them to the rooster that has a good size and sex on his brain at an early age, regardless of how high his tail may be and see if his offspring lay like they should.

Then, with a whole flock of hens that have the basics, one could then worry about feathering, points, type, etc. Forget the shows, forget the points and forget the SOP until they can produce what they were meant to produce and do it well...eggs and meat. That would be my primary goal. And they'd have to do it without lights up their butt for the winter, chemicals in their systems and without high protein feeds on hand at all times.

Of course, that could just be a pipe dream..but I find it the only one worth having to achieve what I would want in a heritage breed chicken.