Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[LindaB220]

A detailed assessment for the Buckeye with comparison photos:
For us visual learners...
http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/ALBCchicken_assessment-1.pdf

I hope these photos can help you understand "depth of keel".

Wow, Extra Java, I got more out of that one file. It was so informative for breeding. Thanks

 

[saladin]

Question for you breeders because we get all kinds different information online.

How long to separate a Cock from the a hen before test breeding another Cock
?

We hear from 7 days to a month and half . Thats a big spread LOL

What do ya'll do ?

And thanks we are enjoying all the great information. Lurking and learning.

A hen will be fertile from a cock for at least 30 days after breeding due to the collection of sperm in her sperm pockets. If you introduce a new cock before that period is up you will get chicks from the new cock after 4 days, but you can also get chicks from the first cock.

The reason is simple. The second cocks sperm will 'cover' the first cocks. However, the reason you can still get chicks from the first cock has to do with the amount of sperm storied, the activity of the second cock and the strength of one cocks sperm over the other.

If you don't care really then it doesn't matter that much. If you do care then you need to leave her without a cock for 30 days before introducing the second cock.

 

[catdaddyfro]

A hen will be fertile from a cock for at least 30 days after breeding due to the collection of sperm in her sperm pockets. If you introduce a new cock before that period is up you will get chicks from the new cock after 4 days, but you can also get chicks from the first cock.

The reason is simple. The second cocks sperm will 'cover' the first cocks. However, the reason you can still get chicks from the first cock has to do with the amount of sperm storied, the activity of the second cock and the strength of one cocks sperm over the other.

If you don't care really then it doesn't matter that much. If you do care then you need to leave her without a cock for 30 days before introducing the second cock.

right on Doc. but I opened that can of worms up last year or so and got lambasted/tongue lashed for it , LOL all I did was show someone else's incident/accident so I learned to not go there or too close LOL

Jeff

 

[saladin]

No can of worms to me. Just simply biological facts. Some things don't take a rocket scientist to figure out. lol.

 

[hcammack]

I do not see where the Faverolle type is extreme? Not in relation to similar birds. A breed type that I would call difficult or extreme would be the Malay.

It seams to me the color would be the most challenging. I was thinking when I read this, would no black in the tails make them easier or harder?
It seams to be a challenge in wheaton varieties to get correctly marked tails in the females. I wonder if no black in the female tails is an advantage? I tend to think it is, because getting it right in these varieties (unless it is already well developed), is tough.
I have an interest in wheaton, not because I have birds that are wheaton, but most of the breeds that I have had or have had an interest in are wheaton based.

My Catalanas are not wheaton, but they are wheaton based and the wheaton tendencies are strong. There is a marked difference in color between the males and females. Not according to the standard, but in reality that is the case.
I am trying to reconcile the difference between the standard requirements, and what the birds actually are in my Catalanas. There is a gap there that needs to be tighened up.

I looked at your breed's standard this morning, and noticed that lacing in the neck etc. is allowed. Is that a refinement that breeders of this variety actively pursue or not? These two points seam to add to the challenge.

Then I noticed that the under color should be slate. I did not expect that, but should not have surprised me. That must be for the male's color. I also noticed the requirements for the black in the wings. The first two breeds that I am interested in have a similar requirement with the wings, and these two points are part of the black balancing act. Neither of those should have a slate under color, but the tendency to have it is there. The tendency is linked to the quantity of black in the body color, and even linked to the intensity of leg color in my Catalanas. I wish the standard allowed for a little slate in the under color of the back in the Catalanas. That there is no allowance for it, makes the Black tailed Buff with slate legs a little more challenging. I am thinking that along the way, I will have to keep a reserve(s) of color (slate under color) on the side.

The OEG bantam breeders seam to be in the best shape concerning many colors. There is a lot of hose breeders in this State. I would like to discuss Wheaton and Black Tailed Buff with one that has it right, and has had a lot of experience with it.

Regardless of the color variety (except solid colored birds), if what we have to work with is not already refined, it is especially challenging to get a grip on it. Especially when there is no one around specializing in whatever color that might be. It is one thing to get breed varieties in good shape, and another to try to build it from ground up.

Over and again, I remember Bob recommending newcomers to stay away from the difficult colors starting out. There is a lot of wisdom in that recommendation. Some of us are hard headed and will figure it out, but more and more I am understanding where he was coming from. I understood him then, but understand him more now. Especially in a variety that is not in good shape already. If the variety is in good shape, there is less challenge and if there is a mentor there is less of a challenge. Figuring out a difficult color variety on your own that is not in good shape, and working from the ground up, is tough.

I guess your right the extreme is the little things you have to tweak and the small differences that affect the coloring. The salmon faverolles are wheaten bird but they have Mahogany and Silver modifier genes. There were originally two types The French Silver Wheaten 'pink salmon' and Mahogany Silver Wheaten which are darker 'brown salmon' and German type. In this country the two have not been kept separate. And the standards have different specifications. So weather to select for a dark salmon or a pink salmon has really been left up to individuals. The breed has been better in the past. I know I picked a tough color pattern to work with. But over the long term I hope to improve them. Many long time faverolles breeders have recently retired so someone has to keep up the mantle or all the half way decent non hatchery stock will disappear.
H

 

[Extra Java]

Below is one of my favorite quotes from Bob in reference to breeding with VISION and calls it - "The Secret of The Day".
Paragraph 3 demonstrates the depth of his teaching wisdom...


"The secret to being a good breeder that I learned is you have to have VISION. You got to ask your self every day WHAT IF I DID THIS. Some may say this Rhode Island Red pullet has very little black markings on her wing she is a cull. But old time breeders I interviewed say you are wrong. She is a $500. pullet. You keep these females around when you get a good male who is overloaded in the wing with black markings. You mate him to her then there best pullet with less black markings back to the male and then she kind of cleans the wings on the future generations. On the female side you take a male very much like Bobby in North Carolina or Matt 1616 her in my back yard in Alabama and mate these super star males with say over loaded wings back to her for two to three years. Mrs. Donaldson use to say these birds help to ABSORB the over abundance of black in the other mate.

Remember I told you That Mr. Kansas told me to Go Slow, Go Small and GO DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Well I think this is bringing you back to the middle by breeding such a female.

In regards to the person who asked, "what do I do to try not to screw up a old line of Heritage Birds such as this old LINE of Mottled Javas?" I just painted a picture for you. I could do this with any breed of Fowl. Just Go Slow, Go Small and Think into the Future with Vision. Many people do not or can not be breeders of Live Stock because they were not born with the Vision trait. My wife goes into a store and touches everything she walks buy. I look at it with Vision and wonder what it would look like on a person. Some are what we call Auditory minded. They say when you talk to them Could you run that by me one more time and kind of TILT there head to the side to listen. I remember one time in school my teacher asked one of my friends what was the capital of Alabama and he looked up at the ceiling and after about 20 seconds said Montgomery. Then She said what is the capital of Oregon he did it again and he said Salem. Latter after class and we where out side playing I asked him why he looked up at the ceiling he said I could visualize the map of the United States I then could see the state and then the Capital of it. I latter asked the teacher if she saw what my friend did she said yes isn't it something. I said why does he do this and Martha looks down and touches her dress when you ask a question. She said she is a feeler or Kinesthetic.

http://personalityjunkie.com/01/learning-styles-personality-type-visual-auditory-kinesthetic/

My friend is a Visual and other kids are Auditory. I latter studied this in sales and found if you know what the person is or his wife when you are making your presentation you can get them to say yes at the end. So in breeding chickens it helps if you have this God given gift. Matt 1616 is always dreaming up new mattings in his head and has a eye for type like I have not seen in years. He would make a great judge some day. I am sure Walt and New York Reds have the same gift. That's why they are both master breeders.

So that's the secret of the day. One thing you can tell people when I am gone to the big chicken show in the sky is he did not take his secrets with him.

So all you people out there lets Visualize how we can save as many strains or lines of large fowl from going extinct in the next five years. Lets have a plan and get you a partner you can trust and lets do it. bob"

Edited by Robert Blosl - 11/27/12 at 7:04am

 

[gjensen]

I guess your right the extreme is the little things you have to tweak and the small differences that affect the coloring. The salmon faverolles are wheaten bird but they have Mahogany and Silver modifier genes. There were originally two types The French Silver Wheaten 'pink salmon' and Mahogany Silver Wheaten which are darker 'brown salmon' and German type. In this country the two have not been kept separate. And the standards have different specifications. So weather to select for a dark salmon or a pink salmon has really been left up to individuals. The breed has been better in the past. I know I picked a tough color pattern to work with. But over the long term I hope to improve them. Many long time faverolles breeders have recently retired so someone has to keep up the mantle or all the half way decent non hatchery stock will disappear.
H

I have my hands full, but I am looking forward to learning the things that go along with the breed I am referring to. My biggest obstacle right now is a lack of reference. The breed is in the Standard but has never really had a following. There is very little information out there.

I have found some literature about them in Spain etc. Mostly they have been concerning commercial flocks. They are a farmyard breed, should be, and fit that role well. Still moving forward, you have to have a picture of correctness, and we have a Standard.
Learning to breed these birds according our Standard requirements will be educational.

 

[hcammack]

I have my hands full, but I am looking forward to learning the things that go along with the breed I am referring to. My biggest obstacle right now is a lack of reference. The breed is in the Standard but has never really had a following. There is very little information out there.

I have found some literature about them in Spain etc. Mostly they have been concerning commercial flocks. They are a farmyard breed, should be, and fit that role well. Still moving forward, you have to have a picture of correctness, and we have a Standard.
Learning to breed these birds according our Standard requirements will be educational.

Sounds like the Catalans are a similar challenge. Yes glad we both have pictures of correctness. Faverolles are originally a farmyard breed as well in France both meat and eggs.

I agree it is educational I love the learning aspect and that is what has attracted me to poultry breeding as a hobby. I love picking the brains of more experienced faverolles breeders both in person and online. That is why I am looking forward to this weekend at the congress!

 

[gjensen]

A hen will be fertile from a cock for at least 30 days after breeding due to the collection of sperm in her sperm pockets. If you introduce a new cock before that period is up you will get chicks from the new cock after 4 days, but you can also get chicks from the first cock.

The reason is simple. The second cocks sperm will 'cover' the first cocks. However, the reason you can still get chicks from the first cock has to do with the amount of sperm storied, the activity of the second cock and the strength of one cocks sperm over the other.

If you don't care really then it doesn't matter that much. If you do care then you need to leave her without a cock for 30 days before introducing the second cock.

Now that is interesting. There is a lot of conflicting information on this, and I have come to understand otherwise. I have went with it, because my eggs have candled clear by ten days.

Why do you think that is? I have checked this two different times.

 

[gjensen]

OK. I just found a paper on the sperm storage of hens. According to it, it is up to three weeks. Then fertility often was very low to absent well before then. So the three week, 30 days would be the maximum time frame.

So possibly that long, but not likely.

I wonder if there could be some variability between individual males and females. Strains, breeds?

I guess that I will have to rethink things. I do not want the possibility of mix ups. I learned something today.