Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[chickadoodles]

Thank you all very much for your help and input. I do appreciate all the help and replies very much.

 

[3riverschick]

Oh well, this is interesting.
Poultry breeding applied,
by F. A. Hays and G. T. Klein.
Published 1952
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003178468;view=1up;seq=1
Lots of neat charts and interesting scientific findings like ... young cockerels with the largest testes grow fastest...cockerels with the longest shanks at a certain age put on the most weight...and more. Quality Table of Contents makes finding info easy.
Best,
Karen

 

[bluehousefarm]

I'm in search of hatching eggs or chicks from a good line of large fowl Barred Rocks. I have a small flock from Jamie Duckworth lines right now but would like a second line to potentially cross with them. Any help would be appreciated!

 

[3riverschick]

I'm in search of hatching eggs or chicks from a good line of large fowl Barred Rocks. I have a small flock from Jamie Duckworth lines right now but would like a second line to potentially cross with them. Any help would be appreciated!

Is your flock too closely related to line breed? Why do you want to cross strains to found your flock?
Have you contacted Mr. Duckworth to see which strains ( if any) he would recommend for a strain-cross?
Bob Blosl said the best way to strain-cross was to find another breeder with the same pure, uncrossed strain which have had it for at least 5 years and lived at least 500 miles away from the foundation That breeder's personal breeding and management decisions plus the different climate and feeds would make the flock that was 500 miles way like a linebreeding when in fact it was an genotypic inbreeding. So one could add variety to their flock while avoiding all the unwanted recessives from crossing to another strain. Ask Walt Leonard, he has been doing it for years.
Karen

 

[bluehousefarm]

Is your flock too closely related to line breed? Why do you want to cross strains to found your flock?
 Have you contacted Mr. Duckworth to see which strains ( if any) he would commend for a strain-cross?
 Bob Blosl said the best way to strain-cross was to find another breeder with the same pure, uncrossed strain which have had it for at least 5 years and live at least 500 miles away from the foundation  That breeder's personal breeding and management decisions plus  the different climate and feeds would make the flock that was 500 miles way like a linebreeding when in fact it was an genotypic inbreeding. So one could add variety to their flock while avoiding all the unwanted recessives from crossing to another strain. Ask Walt Leonard, he has been doing it for years.
 Karen 

Thank you for your input, Karen. I'm still weighing my options so I might just try to find a breeder who has the same strain....
Saskia

 

[gjensen]

Thank you for your input, Karen. I'm still weighing my options so I might just try to find a breeder who has the same strain....
Saskia

It may not even be necessary. How long have you had them? You can build a few families from a small group. With qty. hatched and reared (which by the numbers is it's own variability), and effective selection where health and vigor is the most important consideration, you can go quite a while. That is if they are not too closely bred to begin with, and I doubt the breeder that you got them from would have allowed that to happen.

I would suggest learning to line breed, take them in a couple different directions, and after a couple generations . . . decide what you need. Progress depends on the variability to select from. You may identify a particular trait that is important for you to improve where your birds fall short. If you can continue improvements within your own flock, do it. If you can stay within the same strain, do it. Preferably from the source that knows the strain best. Try to get an individual bird that will help you where you need it, without compromising too much of everything else. Part of this process is managing the risk of losing the progress you have made.

A reasonable method to consider while minimizing the risk, is mating the new bird on the side before committing the best individuals from that mating to your flock. In theory the next generation will be 3/4 your own birds. It is an effort to maintain some control of the direction that they take.

If after a few more generations you are stuck on a point or two, then look to another strain that has what you need.

Focus on one or two characteristics at a time, prioritizing health and vigor. Be patient it takes time. Hatch and grow out enough to give yourself a chance to make progress, and keep your flock deep enough. Deep enough at the least requires a couple families and three males. The less families, the larger the families should be. Some like four. Some run only two. I like three.

Don't cross just to cross. Cross as you need to down the road. Then it is always for an intelligent goal with a specific goal or two in mind. stay within the strain until you cannot and still make progress.

You can start with three genetically sound birds and go for a long time. Select for vigor. Go in more than one direction, and develop a rotation within your own flock. You will know what you need as you move forward and learn to breed the breed. Patience. This hobby requires patience.

 

[bluehousefarm]

Thank you so much gjensen, for your advice. I have to admit that I was kind of looking for a shortcut with the Barred Rocks. I have a lot going on with a couple of other breeds at the moment and you are so right, it does take a lot of patience and dedication to do it right. We have used the Barred Rocks mostly for our own meat and eating egg supply for the last few years. I previously had hatchery Barred Rocks for that purpose and just recently replaced that flock with the gorgeous birds I have right now. The more I look at them the more I think that I should devote more attention and pen space to them. On the other hand I think if I do outcross to a good quality strain it would serve my purpose for the moment. I know that I would probably not contribute to the improvement of this particular breed, but I would have a genetically diverse flock that can freerange and supply us with eggs and meat. Of course this is probably not going to happen, since I can't resist hatching way too many of their eggs to see what I will get ( I was never tempted to do that with the hatchery birds.....) So I already have a whole pasture full of young ones growing out with an eye towards setting up different breeding groups for fall hatching.... Things are evolving and I'm just weighing my options and trying to figure out in what direction I want to go with this flock.

 

[hellbender]

I write this with 'tongue-in-cheek' but it's not too hard to approach the doors of Debtor's Prison' if we don't keep an eye on the bottom line....trying to keep everything in the BLACK if possible.

 

[gjensen]

Thank you so much gjensen, for your advice. I have to admit that I was kind of looking for a shortcut with the Barred Rocks. I have a lot going on with a couple of other breeds at the moment and you are so right, it does take a lot of patience and dedication to do it right. We have used the Barred Rocks mostly for our own meat and eating egg supply for the last few years. I previously had hatchery Barred Rocks for that purpose and just recently replaced that flock with the gorgeous birds I have right now. The more I look at them the more I think that I should devote more attention and pen space to them. On the other hand I think if I do outcross to a good quality strain it would serve my purpose for the moment. I know that I would probably not contribute to the improvement of this particular breed, but I would have a genetically diverse flock that can freerange and supply us with eggs and meat. Of course this is probably not going to happen, since I can't resist hatching way too many of their eggs to see what I will get ( I was never tempted to do that with the hatchery birds.....) So I already have a whole pasture full of young ones growing out with an eye towards setting up different breeding groups for fall hatching.... Things are evolving and I'm just weighing my options and trying to figure out in what direction I want to go with this flock.

You accepted the suggestions graciously. That is refreshing.

Vigor is relevant in a production flock. It is a place where there is some division, and it depends on the emphasis of those doing the discussion.

Adding vigor though, is a short term solution like you mentioned. In a small flock with few breeding cocks, the gains are short lived. You still end up back in a place where an organized effort to maintain is required. Of course it is not helpful to out cross every few years.

It is worth mentioning here that though the Barred Rock strains are distantly related now, I would guess that there is some relation overall. It would not be the degree of vigor that you might see by crossing different breeds. You would see a moderate and short lived boost. What benefit that you would see concerning the numbers would not be substantial, but you may see some improvement. Now would the gains equal the additional investment and the cost of rearing the new birds? Who knows? It would not be helpful to reduce the selection to the closest most convenient thing that you can find, unless there is enough luck that something is worth trying. You would be better served by researching what is out there, and being prepared to pay for the distance, and even wait for availability.

If you are finding yourself committed to the breed then you are realizing where they excel and fall short. Many strains and breeds have their things to commend them, and then there are their shortcomings. There is no perfect bird, as you know. If you want an outcross then looking for birds that are strong where yours are weak is helpful, but you have to go with yours a few generations to know what that is. It takes a little bit to see what your individual birds are producing, and not.

I should add that there is nothing morally wrong with starting with crossed strains. I am more trying to encourage a thoughtful process than any other thing. Heck, I think that Duckworth began by crossing strains. I could be wrong, but the point is that it is done all of the time. There is nothing wrong with doing it.

Again, I am trying to encourage a more purposeful approach. Benefit from the work that has been done with what you have. Talk to Mr. Duckworth and get his thoughts. He knows his birds better than anyone else. He knows what is there, what is not, and what they need. Sometimes it is there, and needs to be teased out. This is where the numbers come in, and those numbers can be an aid concerning depth and vigor.

If you do decide to cross strains (and you will break no "rules" if you do) decide on one that has the potential to help you, and not set you back. That would need to be from a breeder that can give you some information and insight. Know what you are asking for specifically before you start the search (an do not use the word roo, LOL). The last thing you want to do is to get something that will set you back and hurt your position or progress. Your choice of birds should at least be as good or better.

First do no harm. This hobby does require a degree of caution. Some of the breeding philosophies are based on caution and maintaining some control of the direction.

If you decide to cross, cross. Just do it intelligently, and patiently. It might require a little time to secure good enough birds to do it with.

Good luck, and enjoy whatever you decide to do.

 

[bluehousefarm]

Thanks again for your advice , gjensen. I do try to go about things with a purposeful approach. Sometimes there are just conflicting goals and approaches that I need to sort through in my mind and it helps if somebody puts a clear approach in writing, like you did. It would indeed be very easy to get a random Barred Rock "roo" ( sorry, couldn't resist), put him over my hens and be done with it