Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[LeslieDJoyce]

I can tell the males from the females when I have a bunch of chicks with their first feathers (females) and a bunch of sorry looking naked birds (males). And that starts late and lasts a while! I'm maybe 4 weeks behind the first feathering compared to some other other lines, based on photos they share. Maybe more weeks than that.

 

[gjensen]

I am trying not to argue for or against fast feathering in the breed Delaware. It is my opinion that they should have it, but is it reasonable to consider a strain without it acceptable? I would say so. So my opinion is that it should be up to the individual flock owners. It is not as if everything can be dealt with immediately.

I see the breed as the sum of its parts. Each strain being a contribution to the whole. I see the strain here, as a much needed contribution to this breed. A genetic resource.

My view of breed definition is not centered on type alone. Type certainly defines a breed, but not exclusively. I think a breed should play the part as much as they should look the part. But, I also understand that there will be no perfect strain.

I think a strain can descend so far that it is no longer a representation of a given breed, but the body as a whole is preserved by the sum of it's parts. Not by any individual, less that individual is all that is left, and in that case, I believe the breed is lost. I am not convinced by simple re creation. When the genetic resource that we have in a breed is lost, then it is lost.
I say this to say that the value of this strain is in its potential contribution to the breed as a whole.

Concerning the fast fathering gene being lost or not . . . . You can't breed for something that you cannot see, measure, or prove. We cannot breed hypotheticals. So if no one among you has seen fast feathering birds, then it is necessary to secure a bird with the gene.

As I stated in another post, you can improve the rate of feathering in slow to feather strains. It would be simple enough to cull slower to feather growers. You can realize some improvement like this. This had been done in some lines. Some are slower to feather, but not as slow as some Orientals and Barred Rocks. You may never enjoy New Hampshire or Leghorn fast, but faster than you see now.

I do not see the slow feathering gene as necessary to achieve decent barring. Barring does not have the same impact on this color pattern as it does the Barred Rock. The width of barring is less important here. What is important is boldness and crispness of the barring. The aesthetic effect on this color pattern is in the contrast. The bars can be wider if they are crisp and bold. I would prefer it with equal amounts of white.
As a reference (for the Delaware). Consider the winning English Barred Rocks. They are not slow to feather. The quality of Barring of these birds is very good, even if very different.

But . .. . after saying all of the above. I would not recommend any of you even considering rate of feathering at this point. It makes for good conversation, and something to consider. Even if the point is an important point, is it important to address right now? I think it is more important to master the type and color.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

With Delawares, I have a suspicion and a concern.

I suspect that the breed never was what it claims to be on paper. I suspect a lot of marketing.

I am concerned that whatever once was of the breed was lost through hatchery-style cross breeding or neglectful breeding choices. I'm not sure if any historical Delawares still exist.

I like the 1956 feather rate study, not so much for the methodology and conclusions, but because it gives a few hints about what Delawares were in 1956, and it seems one thing they were was slower feathering than New Hampshires.

(It seems New Hampshires were pretty awesome back in the 40s & 50s.)

None of this means I like Delawares any less. I simply value being realistic. I believe any Delaware breeding project will be at least part re-creating the breed.

 

[gjensen]

With Delawares, I have a suspicion and a concern.

I suspect that the breed never was what it claims to be on paper. I suspect a lot of marketing.

I am concerned that whatever once was of the breed was lost through hatchery-style cross breeding or neglectful breeding choices. I'm not sure if any historical Delawares still exist.

I like the 1956 feather rate study, not so much for the methodology and conclusions, but because it gives a few hints about what Delawares were in 1956, and it seems one thing they were was slower feathering than New Hampshires.

(It seems New Hampshires were pretty awesome back in the 40s & 50s.)

None of this means I like Delawares any less. I simply value being realistic. I believe any Delaware breeding project will be at least part re-creating the breed.

You are very thoughtful.

I like the feather rate study myself. I like seeing what they were thinking and seeing. Even if the conclusion is not accurate, the perspective is priceless. It is a snap shot in time.

What the Delaware had over the New Hampshire was feather color.

The New Hampshire became world renowned in a very short period of time. They were a very important achievement. Their popularity crossed oceans. Still today, they are better appreciated in other countries than here. They only had a small window in time though.

The Delaware is still an important and unique part of our poultry history. I hope to see people as dedicated as your group is at contributing to their continuance. They should be represented at ever major show. Every major show should have all of our American breeds represented, and at least in good shape, being representative of their name. Also still useful on the farm.

A historical Delaware exists in the work of some of you. We are always working towards an ideal. We will never cease working towards an ideal.

 

[fowlman01]

The rest of these quotes all make points that I whole-heartedly agree with!



I love my rare birds.  I have them, at least in part, because they are rare.  I understand that when I chose them I was accepting the problems that come with choosing a rare breed.  I tried to be interested in other breeds (I still look at others as possible second breeds to add) but none ever add up to my interest in the Campines.  That lets me know I have the right breed for me, even though others often suggest I would "do better" with an easier breed.

One of the first problems I encountered is that not only are experienced Campinists hard to find, if there are any still living, they are nowhere near the deep south(east,)  I know that if they even exist, they are likely old and cannot be found online.  Therefore, I haul birds to get some guidance and feedback from those with more knowledge and experience than I have.  The trick is figuring out whose advice to listen to!  My strategy is to ask for opinions, thoughts, suggestion from anyone I meet that seems experienced and respected.  I listen and ask questions, I take notes, and consider each detail I am given, then I award more weight to what information is given repeatedly, seems logical, and is not too far off in either direction.  Bob Blosl reminded others often to "keep kicking the can down the middle of the road."  My interpretation of that is that I should be patient, don't try to make quick, drastic changes in my line, and don't get too far off chasing one quality.

Another problem that is constant is that, because they are so rare in the shows, I have run across no one.... breeders, judges, hobbyists, etc. ... that knows the standard on these birds better than I do. I have to bite my cheek when they tell me that I need to work toward this or that, when I know it is not what the standard calls for.  I will not contradict or argue a point with someone who has agreed to my request for a critique. I try to look at what they tell me from the point of view that they are giving me general breeding tips, rather than specific advice on my birds.

At the last large show I entered, I took a hen that was only 3/4 Campine.  She had some (type) qualities that were in line with what I needed, but her markings, while generally appropriate, were obviously off.  One of her main strengths was that she was significantly larger than all the other hens, although still slightly below what the standard calls for.  I needed that size!  My goal in bringing her at all was to show her to some experienced breeders and seek their opinions (pro and con) on using her.

She was given best of breed. 

I knew the only reason she got that was because she was the biggest, and her type was pleasing because it was balanced and solid.  I didn't mind, actually, I was amused.  I did feel bad and a bit embarrassed, because the other exhibitors (both friends) had Campines which were much closer to standard.  The judge, I assume, evaluated them quickly and moved on.  He did not refer to the standard.  They were no competition for the other breeds in the class.  They were not going to go any higher than best of breed, and everyone, especially I, knew it.

A funny aside to that story is that there was a man that perused the Campines and the cage cards and pitched a fit.  He was very angry that she was given BB and said that the owners paid good money to have them judged and should demand a refund.  He caused a small scene.  I was more perplexed by his actions than the judges.

Walt, I have often considered making some flyers that outlines the history, and some main points from the standard, for the Campines.  My thought was that I would attach it to the cages where the Campines were as a way to garner interest in the breed, educate the laymen on how they are judged, and to give the judge a quick reference (if they wanted it.)  I have not done this because I was afraid I would offend the judge, or that doing so would be against the APA copyright rules.  In your comments above, you suggested showing the judge the SOP.  I would be afraid that would be disrespectful, but maybe my idea would accomplish the same thing.  Thoughts?

At the Ventura show last weekend the cream Legbar people contacted the judges ahead of time and reviewed their Standard with them. They are not in the Standard, but Your breed is not seen often and many judges would not mind a refresher. The show may have rules about posting on cages before judging is complete. Try to find out who is judging them and let them know that you would like to go over them at after the judging. That should force him to quickly check his Standard if he doesn't know them well.

Walt

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,

Who was A.W. Newcomer of Glen Rock, PA ? Apparently he had poultry. This shop has gotten ahold of a bunch of his letters from circa 1916 thru 1919.
http://stores.ebay.com/AdVintage-Plus/_i.html?_nkw=poultry&submit=Search+Store
What breeds of poultry did he have?
Here is list of the breeds he had in 1954:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Letter-Letterhead-Gerald-Franklin-Wright-Breeder-Artist-Judge-Poultry-/231747594080?hash=item35f53ba760
Thanks,
Karen
Here's an article on the preservation of the Newcomer Farm in Glen Rock, PA. I guess A. Newcomer was Amos.

http://www.farmtrust.org/web/Documents/Newsletters/FNLT_2011_Summer_Newsletter.pdf

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,

Ok this is interesting:
Effects of whole wheat incorporated into pelleted diets on the growth performance and intestinal function of broiler chickens.





http://www.animalfeedscience.com/ar...7-8401_201512_210__&elsca4=Animal Science

 

[hellbender]

Hi,

Ok this is interesting:
Effects of whole wheat incorporated into pelleted diets on the growth performance and intestinal function of broiler chickens.



Interesting.

 

[finnfur]

Hi,

Ok this is interesting:
Effects of whole wheat incorporated into pelleted diets on the growth performance and intestinal function of broiler chickens.



Thats interesting - mine get soaked whole wheat daily

 

[gjensen]

This is an interesting topic. We discussed this right here before. There was some interesting views. Mine is that a percentage of hard and nutritious grains is a benefit when it is a percentage of the diet.

It is my opinion, that for the best gains, the majority of the ration should be highly digestible. I will let others sort through the subjectivity of that statement. However, not only are there nutritional benefits to intact grains, the exercised digestive system of the bird is better suited for digesting their ration. I guess a summary of my view is a balance of extremes. There is no question that there is better feed conversion with crumbles (or wet or dry mash) over a completely intact all grain diet. On the other hand, a percentage of hard grains added to this diet is an improvement over an all mash diet.

Concerning different levels of this or that . . . . it is interesting to note. On the other hand, there is no mention of what the base diet consists of. An intact grain is nutritionally different than a ground one.

I would appreciate seeing a comparison of different grains using similar methods. I enjoy (and my birds enjoy) getting thrown whole grains as a supplement. I think they are better for it. Especially free ranged, and with a base diet that is a quality commercial ration.