Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote:
A someone relatively new to all of this, I am finding your experiences/descriptions very interesting and educational - please continue to update us on how they are doing and whether they look like they continue to turn the corner.

- Ant Farm

 

[bnjrob]

A someone relatively new to all of this, I am finding your experiences/descriptions very interesting and educational - please continue to update us on how they are doing and whether they look like they continue to turn the corner.

- Ant Farm

LOL - I guess it is interesting when you're not the one ready to tear your hair out. If I was not devoted to this breed, I'd have butchered these suckers by now. But this breed is a very viable, *heritage* farm breed that can feed a family, so for now it's worth it to try to help this particular strain. Although I know there are a good many people that would not agree with me since so few people think Javas are worth any effort at all. It is a learning experience for sure though. I'm just glad I only have one breed - I don't see how these people with many breeds are able to really learn about their birds and work with them to improve/maintain them at any high level of performance.

 

[Wisher1000]

@bnjrob Your experiences sounds very similar to mine. I also started with Urch birds but they were my problem birds. I had poor vigor, lack of egg production, low low hatch rates, and old hens. I had to introduce a new bloodline to get them back on track. I actually managed to assemble three distant lines (generations and miles apart, certainly) and crossed all three. I had/have some "interesting looking" birds as a result, but the issues I mentioned above are all but gone! Now, I can start culling hard from a much healthier pool of birds and the top birds I am raising are even looking better than what I started with. In a few generations, the throwback birds should be few and far between and I will be hauling a Tin Star (my farm) line to be proud of ... even more so than I already am!

My strategy, if I were in your shoes, would be to take the #2 best Urch cock and put him over the McGraw hens (Pen A,) then take the #1 best McGraw cock and put him over a some of the Urch hens (Pen B.) Raise as many as you can for one season, then take all the A and B pullets (they will all be 1/2 Urch and half McGraw) and put them back to the #1 best McGraw cock (or maybe the best cockerel from Pen B, if needed.) The resulting birds would be 3/4 McGraw but with a strong shake up of genes from the other line. Next, put the #1 McGraw cock back over the best 3/4 pullets. The resulting chicks would be 7/8 McGraw and I bet a pretty good line. Doing this would give you two strong lines of your own to work with.

I use the old line names for clarity, but once you start doing the selection/culling, they are no longer from that line. They are then YOUR line, built on a _______ (Urch or McGraw) foundation.

What I outlined above may be exactly what you did, I just wanted to spell it out in case someone else was interested, or you hadn't considered this approach.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi bnjrob,
Thanks for the excellent explanation. Sent you a PM.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[bnjrob]

@bnjrob Your experiences sounds very similar to mine. I also started with Urch birds but they were my problem birds. I had poor vigor, lack of egg production, low low hatch rates, and old hens. I had to introduce a new bloodline to get them back on track. I actually managed to assemble three distant lines (generations and miles apart, certainly) and crossed all three. I had/have some "interesting looking" birds as a result, but the issues I mentioned above are all but gone! Now, I can start culling hard from a much healthier pool of birds and the top birds I am raising are even looking better than what I started with. In a few generations, the throwback birds should be few and far between and I will be hauling a Tin Star (my farm) line to be proud of ... even more so than I already am!

My strategy, if I were in your shoes, would be to take the #2 best Urch cock and put him over the McGraw hens (Pen A,) then take the #1 best McGraw cock and put him over a some of the Urch hens (Pen B.) Raise as many as you can for one season, then take all the A and B pullets (they will all be 1/2 Urch and half McGraw) and put them back to the #1 best McGraw cock (or maybe the best cockerel from Pen B, if needed.) The resulting birds would be 3/4 McGraw but with a strong shake up of genes from the other line. Next, put the #1 McGraw cock back over the best 3/4 pullets. The resulting chicks would be 7/8 McGraw and I bet a pretty good line. Doing this would give you two strong lines of your own to work with.

I use the old line names for clarity, but once you start doing the selection/culling, they are no longer from that line. They are then YOUR line, built on a _______ (Urch or McGraw) foundation.

What I outlined above may be exactly what you did, I just wanted to spell it out in case someone else was interested, or you hadn't considered this approach.

Thanks for that idea, I'll keep it in mind. Had not even gotten that far in a plan, since it seems important to try to keep the lines going separately. Other than killing and eating them, I had not worked out any other plan if things didn't improve with them.

There is such a limited amount of pure Java genetics that go back farther than about 20 years, so I am trying to give them time to recover after having been neglected for so long. Urch cas been carrying a lot of bird breeds for a long time due to lack of breeders, but I can see the difference it makes with having Urch at least trying to keep the birds from disappearing, and birds that were just tossed in a pen and left to their own devices for who knows how long.

I'm gonna copy your suggestions down to keep for reference going forward if things stay stalled at such a substandard level.

 

[3riverschick]

Thanks for that idea, I'll keep it in mind. Had not even gotten that far in a plan, since it seems important to try to keep the lines going separately. Other than killing and eating them, I had not worked out any other plan if things didn't improve with them.

There is such a limited amount of pure Java genetics that go back farther than about 20 years, so I am trying to give them time to recover after having been neglected for so long. Urch cas been carrying a lot of bird breeds for a long time due to lack of breeders, but I can see the difference it makes with having Urch at least trying to keep the birds from disappearing, and birds that were just tossed in a pen and left to their own devices for who knows how long.

I'm gonna copy your suggestions down to keep for reference going forward if things stay stalled at such a substandard level.

Hi,
The neat thing about the above breed program is that you can easily keep some of your Mcgraw birds at 3/4 ( after 2 generations) to 7/8 (after 3 generations). Just healthier. Plus it prevents inbreeding depression. I was unable to keep my Boese stain pure due to making a generation of ignorant breeding decisions, sigh. So I went out to another top quality strain and did a cross. Unfortunately the outcross hen stopped laying so I was unable to bring the best strain-cross sons back to her. If I had, I would have used the program outlined above. Made two families. And been about to preserve both the Ross and the Boese strain in near pure for the future.
Best,
Karen

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote:
Well, maybe more as a cautionary tale.

I have several breeds in my yard, but am not and likely will never really be a "breeder" or represent myself as such - and not promoting/selling eggs or chicks/chickens. But I want to (1) appreciate what goes into a good line of birds of a given breed, and (2) do as little damage as possible to their genetics once they are here. Given space and time/job constraints, I most assuredly will never be able to hatch enough chicks/keep enough chickens to do "serious" work on a breed (even if I eventually got down to deciding on just one breed), but I still feel it is important to "do it justice" and get the best out of what I have by making the best choices I can among those that I do hatch out. I've read enough to know how very quickly things can go downhill when one isn't thoughtful about one's choices and selection, and it helps me to hear about others' experiences and strategy, even if on a larger scale. For instance, I just recently got some German New Hampshire chicks from a good breeder (after a bout of disappointment with hatchery ones). I guess it seems like it would be sacrilege not to at least try to maintain the quality of those birds as best I can in future generations here. (Even if I do also plan to cross them with my big Naked Necks...

)

- Ant Farm

 

[bnjrob]

Well, maybe more as a cautionary tale.

I have several breeds in my yard, but am not and likely will never really be a "breeder" or represent myself as such - and not promoting/selling eggs or chicks/chickens. But I want to (1) appreciate what goes into a good line of birds of a given breed, and (2) do as little damage as possible to their genetics once they are here. Given space and time/job constraints, I most assuredly will never be able to hatch enough chicks/keep enough chickens to do "serious" work on a breed (even if I eventually got down to deciding on just one breed), but I still feel it is important to "do it justice" and get the best out of what I have by making the best choices I can among those that I do hatch out. I've read enough to know how very quickly things can go downhill when one isn't thoughtful about one's choices and selection, and it helps me to hear about others' experiences and strategy, even if on a larger scale. For instance, I just recently got some German New Hampshire chicks from a good breeder (after a bout of disappointment with hatchery ones). I guess it seems like it would be sacrilege not to at least try to maintain the quality of those birds as best I can in future generations here. (Even if I do also plan to cross them with my big Naked Necks...

)

- Ant Farm

If more folks thought that way, we wouldn't have wound up with breeds nearing critically low numbers. Most people think only of being a *show person* when it comes to paying attention to the breeding of their poultry and if they aren't trying to show their birds, then few bother with putting any effort into observing their birds and making conscious choices with them. You don't have to be super serious about breeding to still be able to spend a little bit of time learning a few things and keeping better genetics going.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

All those above posts! Great newbie training for me.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I've got a Java question for the Java people- how do those Mottled Javas from the major hatcheries measure up? Are they anything like they are supposed to be? It would be great to hear the "whys-" I'd like to learn what to look for.
I'm not planning on getting any, but as a chicken fancier- and since we're talking about Javas for the most part, it would be good to learn more. This has been an eye opener |(in a good way) so far- Thanks.