Hmmmmm.... BBS origins?

[BastyPutt]

Just a chicken or egg question here.

Black to black produces black. In order to hatch blue, you need a blue and a black.

Edit: I'm aware other combinations of BBS can make blue, but it wouldn't be as dramatic or possibly poetic if I included that... which am unfortunately doing now.

So if you can only get blue from black, but can't produce a blue from black to black - how them did the first blue come about?!

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

If you think about it, the question is the same for black; all chickens used to be gold duckwing, and none were black. I believe different color genes mostly came from spontaneous mutations.

 

[NatJ]

how them did the first blue come about?!

Genetic mutation, at some point in the past.

 

[BastyPutt]

Genetic mutation, at some point in the past.

If you think about it, the question is the same for black; all chickens used to be gold duckwing, and none were black. I believe different color genes mostly came from spontaneous mutations.

Wouldn't you then continue to see more prolific mutations, like the blue ( or black) has become?

I suppose the question would be, is there some sort of limit on genetics, at least for colors?

For instance, what about hot pink? Is there a scientific reason why their would never be a mutation that would cause a chicken to have hot pink feathers, that could then be reproduced.

 

[NatJ]

Wouldn't you then continue to see more prolific mutations, like the blue ( or black) has become?

The basic red junglefowl coloration (chicken calculator, all genes marked +) is the original form. ALL the other genes we know about are mutations.
http://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html

When people start examining the exact mechanism, they find that mutations are commonly caused by DNA that copies a little bit wrong when forming new cells: something gets missed, or duplicated, or transposed, or a similar error. There is also at least one (blue egg gene) that is considered to be from retrovirus DNA getting added to the chicken DNA (once it was in the DNA of a chicken, it could be inherited like any other chicken DNA: remarkably like genetic engineering, but in this case it happened naturally.) Some of those mutations have no effect, some cause a problem that kills the chicken, and some cause effects that people notice and want to preserve.

Mutations are definitely continuing to occur.

The "chocolate" gene is a fairly recent one, while the one for short legs (Dorkings, Japanese bantams) has been around for thousands of years. Any mutation that people notice and deliberately breed, will tend to stick around (crested heads, silkie feathers, feathered feet) and may become common (black, silver, dominant white, brown vs. white eggs). But a mutation that kills the chicken, or that people just do not find very interesting, will tend not to be common (ear tufts on Araucanas: one copy of the gene will cause ear tufts, but two copies will kill the chick, and most people do not like ear tufts enough to put up with that. So the vast majority of chicken breeds and crossbreeds do NOT have ear tufts.)

I suppose the question would be, is there some sort of limit on genetics, at least for colors?

For instance, what about hot pink? Is there a scientific reason why their would never be a mutation that would cause a chicken to have hot pink feathers, that could then be reproduced.

There are some limits, but I do not know exactly what they are.

It seems that many mutations are actually making something not work quite right. Examples would be blue (causes black pigment to not form properly) and silver (blocks the formation of red pigment) and barring (intermittently blocks the pigment formation, creating unpigmented white "bars.") But some other mutations cause pigment to spread further than it otherwise would (example: Extended Black). And some mutations cause a substance to be deposited in the eggshell (blue eggs) or the skin & fat (yellow skin vs. white skin), when it otherwise would not be.

Chickens and mammals seem to naturally form red pigment and black pigment, so most colors that we see are variations of those plus white. "Blue" in birds such as bluebirds and peacocks is caused by a structural change in the feathers so it reflects light differently, not an actual blue pigment. (Similar mechanism to what makes the sky appear blue.) I have seen at least one chicken that appeared sort-of pink (I think it had white and red in a way that looked pink from a distance), and it's common for people to call some eggs "pink." I do not know whether a chicken or egg could appear actual "hot pink" instead of a brownish-pink.


If you want to go into more detail, I see this as a possible starting point:
"In biology, a mutation is an alteration in the nucleic acid sequence of the genome of an organism,"
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

Personally, I haven't cared enough to go much past what I put in this response.

 

[BastyPutt]

My five sons, for the most part all look different. My wife is (beautiful) taller and a bit lanky from Mexico, and I am in the shorter spectrum, heavier and as white as a rabbit, with dark hair and a red beard (match made in heaven, I know ). But I am a real mash up of different genes, she isn't - aside from a French scientist, exploring food borne illness in Mexico in the early 1900's, who met a young Mexican field worker, who ended up being her great, grandparents - she is almost 100% of Mexican decent. (She and her family do prefer "Mexican" over any other descriptor, such as "Latina or Latinx" - they actually really don't like when called the latter, but don't squabble over it)

Anyway, our kids all look different. The most recent is just over a year, and is showing some similarities with another sibling. All of them have Mexican undertones, but then something like blonde hair. The family obviously jokes around a lot about different dads, and it is a really funny joke, because it is viewed to be so far out of the realm of possibility.

This is some info I never knew, but am glad I know now. I am thankful it is posted here for people to read. I have never been too interested in genetics, until it started recently with chickens, and has now led to humans and my family. It is an incredible difficult topic to understand, especially in humans, but understanding chicken genetics, is a great place to start, and gives you a general understanding to begin with humans.

 

[ShaunJ421]

I bought a pair (cockerel and pullet) of Blue (BBS) Ameraucana. The reason I bought Blue over Black or Splah, is because I wanted to breed them. By breeding the 2 Blues, I'll get 50% Blue, 25% Black, and 25% Splash offspring. Which gives me the best color variety.

And from what I've researched myself...

Splash to Splash produces only Splash offspring.
Blue to Splash will produce 50% Splash and 50% Blue offspring.
Blue to Black will give you 50% Blue and 50% Black offspring.
Splash to Black is the only pairing that will give you 100% Blue offspring.

I don't know a whole lot about genetics. I got my chickens as pets for eggs, hatching out some offspring, and any spare roosters become meat birds.

But I'm guessing it was a mutation that happened at some point down the line, from cross breeding the colors, that became a recessive gene. And if both parents have that recessive gene, you'll get that mutation passed on to their offspring.

 

[NatJ]

I'm guessing it [blue] was a mutation that happened at some point down the line, from cross breeding the colors, that became a recessive gene. And if both parents have that recessive gene, you'll get that mutation passed on to their offspring.

Um, not exactly.

Crossbreeding is not needed. Mutations can happen in any chickens, purebreds or not.

Blue is not a recessive gene. It is incompletely dominant. Dominant, because just one copy of the blue gene is enough to make an obvious effect (black becomes a shade of gray). Incompletely dominant, because two copies of the gene has a stronger effect (splash).

A recessive gene is one that only shows when a chicken has two copies of it. But a chicken with one copy can still pass that recessive gene to its chicks, who can pass it to their own chicks. It just does not get seen or noticed unless one of them gets two copies (one from each parent.) That is why recessive genes can seem to show up out of nowhere, because they are carried without being visible. Common examples are single comb chickens from rose comb parents & grandparents, or recessive white chickens from colored parents & grandparents.

 

[ShaunJ421]

And this is why I'm here. To learn. LOL