Home Feeding Ideas and Solutions Discussion Thread

[Deerfield Acres]

BTW your comment about feeding chickens "alone in the woods with a loincloth" made me chuckle out loud...

X 2! Very entertaining and enlightening stuff all around!

 

[galanie]

BTW your comment about feeding chickens "alone in the woods with a loincloth" made me chuckle out loud...

X 2! Very entertaining and enlightening stuff all around!

X 3!

 

[400constantne]

Looking at the historical record, I would argue the case that "feeding a chicken human food in order to produce human food" is not at all "inefficient." It's what was done for thousands of years.

Look at it this way. Much of farming throughout history has been about growing staple crops (providing carbohydrate calories, in the form of grains, usually). Mostly this was subsistence farming, and most people ate what they grew, or what their neighbors grew. As anyone who farms knows, the weather and a million other uncontrollable variables affect the grain yields from year to year--and if you are a subsistence farmer, you need to plant a little extra to take this into account, because if you don't have ENOUGH one year you could very likely starve to death, so you end up routinely have a surplus, because it's better than being dead. This is fine, but it just means that the upshot is you generally have more of your main staple (and maybe other things too) than you can use. You keep a small flock of chickens (relative to the size of your farm), which range completely freely, supplying a small amount of high quality animal products for you to eat, to enrich your grain-based diet. You feed them a little of your surplus grain every day--which is no skin off your back, so to speak, because you always have a little bit of extra grain. Something that is of little use to you (surplus grain), is turned into something very valuable (a little protein and other nutritrion from free-range eggs and meat). Furthermore, the chickens forage for all the rest of their feed--in manure piles from your grazing animals, in your midden heap, in the woods, in the grain fields where they glean fallen grain, in the barns, pastures, woods, etc. So you don't have to supply grit, oyster shell, drinking water, or anything else. The chickens reproduce themselves without your help, as a true landrace does, and while you might do a little selection through culling, when and if you have the time, you don't really need to because natural selection does most of the work for you. It's a complete win-win for everybody and hardly "inefficient" in any pragmatic sense of the word. Inefficient systems don't last for thousands of years--call it "the test of time."

So to try to get to sum up my point here--and unless I'm misunderstanding YOUR point, which is entirely possible --I don't see how feeding chickens "human food" is ineffecient, especially on a sustainable farm or homestead, because aside from what they forage for themselves, you're just feeding them your own surplus produce and household scraps, etc.--bi-products if you will, by which I mean feed sources that are already connected to your other activities and don't require significant SEPARATE inputs. To me that's one DEFINITION of "efficiency." What sounds inefficient to me is the idea of people scouring the woods, peeling pine bark or gathering wild plants or acquiring other feeds especially for the chickens that have no other use to you, the human. I don''t think that's bad per se if it makes the chickens healthy and people aren't destroying pine forests or whatever to do it, but I just don't see how that's more efficient. Yes, BUYING "human food" to feed your chickens may be inefficient, but feeding them on farming surplus "human food," especially such which might be considered "off-grade" or otherwise of little value to people, in order to produce a nutritious diversity of food products, is, as history shows, a very practical approach.

And before anyone gets mad at me for being hopelessly theoretical and out-of-context, I realize also that not everyone on this forum is subsistence farmer--nor am I. That's not my point, of course. My point is that universal principles still apply. In a sense I think part of what makes chickens easy to keep and has made keeping them practical for millenia is the fact that they eat a diversity of things and that they can eat most of the same things that people eat and get by quite nicely on the same staple foods that people can (again, historically, mostly grain, but also this could be potatoes, squash, cassava, etc--me, I don't grow grain, having neither the space, nor the ideal growing conditions, but I do grow with ease many other starchy staple foods). Sure, there are important nutritional differences between man and chicken that are not to be overlooked, but from an everyday standpoint of figuring out what they can eat, not all that different. And how convenient for us humans!

Those are my thoughts on this, anyhow...

Feeding chickens human food is not efficient, if you have a limited amount of food. If you grow your own food, and all is well, then feeding chickens human food works out just fine. In fact, it is better than eating the grain yourself, because the egg provides nutrients that grains lack. However, if you are like most people in the US today, and you own less than an acre of land, then the probablility of growing enough grain for you and your chickens is very slim. Farming today is very very different than it was for the previous thousands of years. Farmers were the poor guys, who chose a piece of land who nobody wanted, and went about making something out of it. In todays world, land is very expensive. Very few people can be farmers. Almost nobody can grow their own grain, in order to support themselves, and their chickens. Therefore, the farmer scenario is unrelistic, and rather irrelevent today. We simply do not live in that kind of world anymore.
I do own an acre of land, and I have goats. This is how I would make food for my chickens, if the "trucks stopped running" (maybe, because of war, the military would need the fuel).
Constantines mountain chicken mix:
Alfalfa/Timothy/Brome - 3 parts (grows in my yard for goats/rabbits)
Bark/Pine Needle - 3 parts (shaved off of logs for the wood stove Note: inner bark HAS saved people from starvation)
Buds - Aspen, Birch, Willow, cottonwood, hazel, cedar etc - 8 parts
Berries - Rose, Juniber, Mountain Ash - 1 part
Dandelion/weeds - 1 part
Pine cone seeds - 1 part (extremely nutritious
Duckweek - 2 part

Ground up, soaked in goats milk. Healthy, nutritious, and "free."

In reality, it is just not practical in todays world to keep animals. We can buy eggs from the store for $2.00, milk by the gallon for $4.00. To keep goats and chickens etc, on a small scale will never be financially efficient. We simply keep them because we like them, or like to eat fresh food.

BTW your comment about feeding chickens "alone in the woods with a loincloth" made me chuckle out loud...

We have all heard the story about the man child raised alone in the woods by wolves.... I am surprised that no one has heard the old wives tale about a man child raised alone in the woods by a flock of "jungle fowl..."
There are no spiders in my house...

 

[400constantne]

It should also be noted that in a society such as we live in today, that we completely at the mercy of trucks bringing food into stores thousands of miles away. It is not only possible, but probable, that at some point, due to natural disaster, or war which needs all of the fuel, that the trucks may not come in. In this scenario, there will not only be no food, but of course no chicken food either. Since very few Americans own enough land, or have the capability of cultivating the land, the grain scenario is just not very realistic.

The Government tells us everyday that they can no longer pay their bills. Maybe for once, they are telling the truth?

 

[kimfeatherfriends123]

I will have to ask him how much it was?? I will let you know

 

[bj taylor]

I have enjoyed reading through your thread and signed up because of it.
I have a 3 small flocks of different breeds and 4 ducks Peking and khaki cambells.

You mentioned a few times duckweed lemna and other varieties, but what I had added to my pond two years ago is known in the UK as fairy moss ( Azolla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azolla) which I am sure someone mentioned. Needless to say as it took over the spare space of the pond in my garden so I picked it out and threw it towards the chook enclosure, sceptics at first they barely touched it but when I threw it again the next day or two bamm it was rushed for and became their new treat as such as I didnt realise until know the nutritional benefits. I also added water cress into my pond filter system and harvest so much of it in the summer/autmn and winter I should feed more of it to them or take it down the allotment for the others.

I did however add fairy moss to my ponds and water butts at the allotmentthis year. You would think my ducks were addicts the way they behave when they see you go towards the water butts with an empty flower pot(strainer). I harvest a 5 litre pot worth at a time and add it to the small pond I have for the ducks and it is gone in minutes followed by a display of glee from the ducks that neighbours enjoy watching.

Being an allotment I have benefitted from everyones bolted lettuces, brassica leaves,old fruit- there is a horid tasting plum tree in the pen with the chooks and apart from the odd purple stained chook we did notice the eggs change flavour during fruiting season. Apples go down a treat with my girls as do old or split tomatoes from the greenhuse. One old man collects bread from a near by bakers. He always soaks it before giving it to them, something his mother from Malta used to do.
The girls take the time on the whole plant material, especially cauliflowers, the leaves were gone quickly leaving the stemy vein and head to slowly been eaten over days. Do people do much prep work on whole plants?

I do have a fruit and veg wholesale market on my road, they are great resources but you have to get up early to grab the waste before it is binned and carted away. When I worked there that was easy and I brought home so much my chooks started getting fussy and only wanted grapes

, most of it went to the compost. I feel after reading this thread and writing my reply I may start going back down in the morning for more scraps.

I do also make my girls a nice bowl of porridge on the coldest of days especially if water had frozen as it ensures they get some water and nutrition.

I do add DE to the layers pellets mix from time to time but have not really observed the results. If I add it to wet food I notice the girls are less happy to eat the food, this is the same with the cats in the house( I use it as a natural wormer for them).

I have raised mealworms for 2 years and had troubles with summer temp being too high in the shed while I was away and that I lost them all. They are really easy to keep on oats with a split potato in the plastic box for moisture and the chooks and wild birds love them. Dont use polystyrene or cardboard as the mealworms will eat through or climb out.

Has anyone tried breeding stick insects for chook food, they multiple quickly?

My last comment before I retire to bed, I do love picking off the slugs from my garden veg at night and feeding them to the chooks but note to everyone DONT FEED CHICKENS SLUGS BEFORE BED, If you do this dont expect the girls to go to bed for at least another hour as they wont believe you when you say they have all gone and they will go searching the grounds for more.

astonishing post. i would love to have such a handle on things. this gives my encouragement to work toward this goal. y'all are having a heavy winter in, i'm guessing, england aren't you? hope to read more of your methods.

 

[triplepurpose]

Feeding chickens human food is not efficient, if you have a limited amount of food. If you grow your own food, and all is well, then feeding chickens human food works out just fine. In fact, it is better than eating the grain yourself, because the egg provides nutrients that grains lack. However, if you are like most people in the US today, and you own less than an acre of land, then the probablility of growing enough grain for you and your chickens is very slim. Farming today is very very different than it was for the previous thousands of years. Farmers were the poor guys, who chose a piece of land who nobody wanted, and went about making something out of it. In todays world, land is very expensive. Very few people can be farmers. Almost nobody can grow their own grain, in order to support themselves, and their chickens. Therefore, the farmer scenario is unrelistic, and rather irrelevent today. We simply do not live in that kind of world anymore.
I do own an acre of land, and I have goats. This is how I would make food for my chickens, if the "trucks stopped running" (maybe, because of war, the military would need the fuel).
Constantines mountain chicken mix:
Alfalfa/Timothy/Brome - 3 parts (grows in my yard for goats/rabbits)
Bark/Pine Needle - 3 parts (shaved off of logs for the wood stove Note: inner bark HAS saved people from starvation)
Buds - Aspen, Birch, Willow, cottonwood, hazel, cedar etc - 8 parts
Berries - Rose, Juniber, Mountain Ash - 1 part
Dandelion/weeds - 1 part
Pine cone seeds - 1 part (extremely nutritious
Duckweek - 2 part

Ground up, soaked in goats milk. Healthy, nutritious, and "free."

In reality, it is just not practical in todays world to keep animals. We can buy eggs from the store for $2.00, milk by the gallon for $4.00. To keep goats and chickens etc, on a small scale will never be financially efficient. We simply keep them because we like them, or like to eat fresh food.

We have all heard the story about the man child raised alone in the woods by wolves.... I am surprised that no one has heard the old wives tale about a man child raised alone in the woods by a flock of "jungle fowl..."
There are no spiders in my house...

Of course, I agree that "practical" or "efficient" are relative terms depending on the circumstances of where you live and what your resources are. I totally agree that for someone with less than an acre, growing grain for themselves and their chickens is ludicrous. I thought I made that much clear. Grains require tools and maybe even machinery to process, and also take a lot of space to produce a decent amount. However, potatoes don't. Cassava doesn't. Sweetpotatoes don't. Taro doesn't. As I tried to explain, grains aren't the only source of carbohydrates--in many places in the world grains are not the main staple. All of these crops I mentioned can be grown on very little space, relative to grain. Potatoes, for example, could be grown abundantly on far less than an acre of land. They don't require especially fertile soil, are easy to grow, and don't have to be processed. Anyone with a hoe, a small box of seed spuds (saved from last years crop, ideally), and a few square feet of yard space can grow potatoes. You can eat them, and feed them to your animals, because it's a simple matter to grow a bit more than you need. If you are cooking potatoes for yourself regularly, then it's easy to throw a few extra in the pot for the small flock, as part of their food. With the other crops I mentioned, you don't even need seed potatoes. Cassava and sweetpotatoes are both grown from cuttings you take from the top part of your plant so you don't even need to sacrifice part of your root harvest for the next crop.

Up until recently, many people scoffed at the idea of growing a significant portion of their own food, as being a needless waste of time, money, and energy. Then gas prices went up a couple of dollars, driving food costs and everything else in our oil-dependant economy up, and suddenly people are taking the idea very seriously, and it doesn't look like such a useless idea or just a "hobby" anymore. Even people with tiny allotments are suddenly interested in growing food. Having animals too is a natural next step for people, especially as they learn how integrating the two can be complementary. All that it took was a slight increase in oil prices to change people's perspectives and make it "practical"--and it seems likely that things will continue in this direction in the near future.

I just don't agree that keeping animals on a small scale can't be efficient--if it's part of an INTEGRATED food producing system. And none of this has to be on an individual scale, BTW, since especially for those in urban areas, communal projects would make much more sense! The idea of farms supporting only a single family is a weirdly American "frontiersman" concept that makes no sense in most places today.

But what's really inefficient is producing food on a massive scale in un-integrated factory-style processes using practices that degrade the genetics and health of the livestock, degrade the environment, undermine food security, damage people's health, and contribute to the depletion of fossil fuels and the spread of pollution. It looks good (from a kind of narrow-minded perspective, at least) as long as oil is cheap and grain production is subsidized, but as oil supplies dwindle and prices continue to rise it will become abundantly clear just how inefficient and impractical the current food system is. People pay for their "cheap food" in a million other ways, now and in future generations. If sustainable food production looks "inefficient" now, it's only further proof that our entire way of living needs to be adjusted to take the big picture into account, which will require creativity and some new solutions--not because sustainability is a new concept, but because we've never had an UNsustainable industrial society on earth until less than two centuries ago.

Speaking of which, it's easy to forget how novel, ephemeral, and fragile this "modern world" and way of doing things is. It's only a few generations old, and was only made possible by fossil fuels. In the scope of things, it's so new it hasn't even been proven to work on a long term basis yet--in fact, most evidence increasingly suggests it is not in any way sustainable for much longer, especially as oil production peaks (that's putting it generously). Compare this sort of false, glossed-over efficiency with the kind of nature-based, biological efficiency that fed our ancestors (everywhere) since the dawn of time. NOW, which seems more "practical" and "efficient?" If people still aren't sure, I recommend giving it a few more years of watching the oil prices continue to rise... It won't take long...

BTW I like your feed mix. Clever and resourceful! I agree that it's all about being resourceful making things work for you--the one size-fits-all approach is dated...

 

[400constantne]

I like the potato idea. You could grow potatoes on a pretty large scale, if you hade the seed. When I looked it up on the net, an acre of potatoes planted will yield well over 20,000lbs of potato... You wouldn't need a mountain mix if you could pull that off.

The problem:
"How many pounds of seed potatoes does it take to plant 1 acre assuming 30 rows and 15 plant spacing?"

The answer:
Somewhere in the 1,100 pound range.

Another source said that 45# of potatoes could yied 1,000 lbs... that is more like it!
It may be a good idea to have a bag of spuds on hand.

 

[SouthDakotan]

Your idea sparked some realizations for me. When I think back to where I was always dealing with the hens foraging (in my neighbor's yard & my own) I realize it may work best to do this. Building up their favorite "haunts" in a controlled run environment. It would be no different than rotating the paddicks we place our dairy livestock into, while giving other plots time to recovery from grazing.

The second place my chickens LOVE to stir up has been my leaf piles, as I worked to rake up my yard. I remember reading where someone used leaves instead of commercial sawdust or straw in their runs and I can see how such a use of the leaves would help break them down (being scratched) while the chickens work to find the bugs hiding underneath.

I also realize that while I can't say I would raise mealworms, I wouldn't have a problem placing them in the "resting" run that is yet to be pastured by my chickens. Giving them plenty of time to procreate and populate the area.

I'm still working out however, how in the extreme winter cold, how to provide them a balanced diet without depending on commercial feed. I'm looking to learn what vitamins and minerals chickens NEED for sustained health. Most of what you read these days wants to just give the "commercial feed" listing rather than give us the list of minerals, vitamins, protein breakdown. Perhaps I will have to resort to speaking with a poultry professor and getting the details directly from a university facility that is researching poultry health.

But I think what you are suggesting is definitely on the right track!

 

[galanie]

You mention the chickens scratching in leaves, that's how I now do my composting. I put it all in the center of an area about 20x20 and throw some scratch on top. That's all it takes. They stay busy for weeks spreading it out and breaking it down, plus adding a bit of nitrogen to it. After a rain I'll rake it all up into a big pile again and either they'll scratch it back down, turning it nicely for me, or it'll pretty much stay there and heat up. I used to fight them with the compost piles but now I let them do the work.

Leaves and pine needles are my "shavings" now too. Why buy all this stuff when all I have to do is rake things up and throw them in there? As for growing potatoes, I'd use sweet potatoes here. They are just about the most nutritious crop for the amount of effort you can possibly grow. And the chickens love them raw, no cooking needed. The leaves are also edible, both for you and the chickens. Win/win!