Homesteaders
- Thread starter MountainMamaHST
- Start date
Woodsdweller
Songster
Ummm.. after a steak? as I recall.... NONE!
The ones that didn't become steaks about 3/4 - 1 1/2 gallon a day.
Last edited:
Chicken girl 15
Songster
oh, I would need 3 of those then. We drink 1-2 gallons a day.Ummm.. after a steak? as I recall.... NONE!
The ones that didn't become steaks about 3/4 - 1 1/2 gallon a day.
- Apr 22, 2012
- 386
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- 166
I’m going to try to explain what set me off… I’m hoping it will inspire people to do some thinking and research. The issue here is words – specifically, definitions. Generally, language works as a means of communication because people agree on the meaning attributed to various sounds we make, and the symbols we use to designate those sounds. Generally.
Since the ‘70’s there has come to be another form of definition – government definitions. Various agencies of the government have taken it upon themselves to create ‘official’ definitions of terms pertaining to activities they control – definitions which they then use to formulate standards, and punishments for using those words without meeting the standards they have defined. Once a word is so defined, especially to the people who have to deal with that definition and those agencies, it is a completely different animal. Terms that the government has defined include ‘grass fed’, ‘100% grass fed’ and ‘organic’.
We raise 100% grass fed beef – for a living. There are no side jobs for the health insurance, no craft shows for extra cash. This farm has been 100% grass fed since 1983. We are in an area where *many* people raise beef – and most of them know the latest buzz-words.
Because many of them also sell beef to other people, and grass fed is a buzz word with a price attached, every person selling beef at farmers markets or to restaurants in this county and two neighboring ones claims to be raising ‘grass fed beef’ – even though there are creep feeders in most pastures, many of them buy calves with unknown histories at the stock yard to finish, and the butcher has commented that ours are the only ones who go through his facility without grain in their stomachs.
But, most of those farmers believe it doesn’t matter – all cows eat grass, right? It’s just a label. Makes people happy, makes him/her a few extra bucks – what’s the difference? Besides, they’re saying ‘grass fed’, and that standard allows for a little bit of grain in a crisis…
The people don’t know they’re getting swindled, because they’re confused. They try to ask – but they don’t ask the right questions, or listen carefully to the answers. They ask ‘do your cows eat grass?’ and the farmer says yes. They ask ‘what do you feed your cattle?’ and the farmer says ‘oh, they’re just out there in the pasture’. Consumers hear that as ‘pastured’ and assume grass fed – they don’t realize that *that* answer is a dodge – he said where they were, not what they eat. It’s common here to go out to the pasture in a truck & feed cattle grain *from the tailgate* so that they learn to follow the truck. This mess is the result of human nature plus unclear or multiple definitions. (I’m sure everyone here knows that the ‘free range’ chickens at the grocery store most likely never went outdoors, right?)
The other people getting skwood are the people who actually *are* doing what they say. Because there are SO many people misleading consumers, the honest ones have to go way beyond to prove that they aren’t lying like everyone else. In our case that started with nutrition testing because of government requirements (we could have given people the feedlot composite numbers from the USDA website, but that would be lying) then AGA certification... Because there are so many people lying, and so many people not understanding, each year in May we have to pay three veterinarians $300 an hour (each), plus mileage and travel time, to spend about half a day gong over our farm and our records. When we exit ‘transition’, there will be an annual inspection in June every year by OEFFA, and another four-figure bill.
THIS is why I go ballistic when people play fast and loose with the definitions. When I was young, ‘organic’ meant a molecule containing a carbon atom. That is the only other definition that is still legal and valid, but it’s not of much use outside a laboratory. There are not two definitions for organic production – there is one, and it is set by the government. They have, in a nutshell, declared that they own that word. When you are, or allow other people to be, sloppy with that definition, you are hurting the very people who are trying to do things the way you supposedly want them done.
The ‘slack’ on organic certification is a small producer exemption – you CAN say you’re organic, and label your product with that word (not the seal) if, and only if, you are following that government definition and selling less than 5k a year. You *may* be audited; if your products or practices are found to not follow that standard, you will be fined up to $11k per occurrence. It is now also technically illegal to use the terms ‘beyond organic’ and ‘uncertified organic’ or any other phrase containing the word organic without following that government standard – if you are, you are, if you’re not, you’re not – just like being pregnant. I suggest we create some other term to describe things that are better than conventional but not up to that government standard. ` `
Since the ‘70’s there has come to be another form of definition – government definitions. Various agencies of the government have taken it upon themselves to create ‘official’ definitions of terms pertaining to activities they control – definitions which they then use to formulate standards, and punishments for using those words without meeting the standards they have defined. Once a word is so defined, especially to the people who have to deal with that definition and those agencies, it is a completely different animal. Terms that the government has defined include ‘grass fed’, ‘100% grass fed’ and ‘organic’.
We raise 100% grass fed beef – for a living. There are no side jobs for the health insurance, no craft shows for extra cash. This farm has been 100% grass fed since 1983. We are in an area where *many* people raise beef – and most of them know the latest buzz-words.
Because many of them also sell beef to other people, and grass fed is a buzz word with a price attached, every person selling beef at farmers markets or to restaurants in this county and two neighboring ones claims to be raising ‘grass fed beef’ – even though there are creep feeders in most pastures, many of them buy calves with unknown histories at the stock yard to finish, and the butcher has commented that ours are the only ones who go through his facility without grain in their stomachs.
But, most of those farmers believe it doesn’t matter – all cows eat grass, right? It’s just a label. Makes people happy, makes him/her a few extra bucks – what’s the difference? Besides, they’re saying ‘grass fed’, and that standard allows for a little bit of grain in a crisis…
The people don’t know they’re getting swindled, because they’re confused. They try to ask – but they don’t ask the right questions, or listen carefully to the answers. They ask ‘do your cows eat grass?’ and the farmer says yes. They ask ‘what do you feed your cattle?’ and the farmer says ‘oh, they’re just out there in the pasture’. Consumers hear that as ‘pastured’ and assume grass fed – they don’t realize that *that* answer is a dodge – he said where they were, not what they eat. It’s common here to go out to the pasture in a truck & feed cattle grain *from the tailgate* so that they learn to follow the truck. This mess is the result of human nature plus unclear or multiple definitions. (I’m sure everyone here knows that the ‘free range’ chickens at the grocery store most likely never went outdoors, right?)
The other people getting skwood are the people who actually *are* doing what they say. Because there are SO many people misleading consumers, the honest ones have to go way beyond to prove that they aren’t lying like everyone else. In our case that started with nutrition testing because of government requirements (we could have given people the feedlot composite numbers from the USDA website, but that would be lying) then AGA certification... Because there are so many people lying, and so many people not understanding, each year in May we have to pay three veterinarians $300 an hour (each), plus mileage and travel time, to spend about half a day gong over our farm and our records. When we exit ‘transition’, there will be an annual inspection in June every year by OEFFA, and another four-figure bill.
THIS is why I go ballistic when people play fast and loose with the definitions. When I was young, ‘organic’ meant a molecule containing a carbon atom. That is the only other definition that is still legal and valid, but it’s not of much use outside a laboratory. There are not two definitions for organic production – there is one, and it is set by the government. They have, in a nutshell, declared that they own that word. When you are, or allow other people to be, sloppy with that definition, you are hurting the very people who are trying to do things the way you supposedly want them done.
The ‘slack’ on organic certification is a small producer exemption – you CAN say you’re organic, and label your product with that word (not the seal) if, and only if, you are following that government definition and selling less than 5k a year. You *may* be audited; if your products or practices are found to not follow that standard, you will be fined up to $11k per occurrence. It is now also technically illegal to use the terms ‘beyond organic’ and ‘uncertified organic’ or any other phrase containing the word organic without following that government standard – if you are, you are, if you’re not, you’re not – just like being pregnant. I suggest we create some other term to describe things that are better than conventional but not up to that government standard. ` `
MoonShadows
The Jam Man
I can hear the frustration in your post, not only because of peoples' ignorance of the real meaning of words, terms and definitions, but because so many people, businesses, organizations just plain ignore these or decide it's OK to fudge it a bit or a lot, or just plain out lie, usually with impunity. And, very few people "fact check" anything today, so what they hear or read, especially on the internet, becomes accepted as "truth" and passed along, just exacerbating the problem. This seems to be endemic in today's world. We are surrounded by it at every turn. It is also frustrating to play by the rules, paying the burden (read: paying money, time and effort) while you are surrounded by many who are skirting these same rules for profit and the "easy life". In the long run, we all suffer as a community, whether it be our town, county, state or country. It is disheartening.
Last edited:
Fuzzy Moto
In the Brooder
I agree that is is a problem when the Gov't steps in and makes it harder for honest farmers to do what they always have, and done with honesty (Ie. welcome to come to our farm any time and see our animals and how they actually live). Unfortunately there have been bad players, bit larger and small. I understand the need for some oversight, but it is all designed for the large to too huge to fail outfits. So much so that as someone looking to possibly going in to a small scale operation, I don;t think I could manage to do it with in the regs. And the funny thing is that I know that the Gov't makes deals with those with money, so they can and do continue to break rules cause they can pay. Just very frustrating for me and to watch the honest Farmers getting "Skwood".
Ok Done with my mini Rant and Full disclosure, I actually work for a State Gov't in Transportation.
Ok Done with my mini Rant and Full disclosure, I actually work for a State Gov't in Transportation.
Chicken girl 15
Songster
I want to cut out the middle Man all together by skipping the store. I would rather (am trying to in fact ) find a small scale farmer who does I "the right way" not the government way. Then buy From them and learn from them.
I feel (I might be incorrect ) that the farmer (large or small) that is doing things today as they were done long ago probably has healthier animals. I don't feel that cattle should be in a tiny stall and fed only grain and hay. I don't feel chickens should be locked in a cage and fed only feed. I love the taste of true grass fed beef, as the farm we bought from in TX was truly grass fed. They were born and butchered at the same farm and they never bought grain or supplements. That is how my small scale homestead/farm will be. We only use natural fertilizer (chicken, cow and horse poo). My chickens and kids do my dandelion control, the chickens lone those things. I don't know terminology for how we run things I just know it's chemical free to the best of our ability. I want to avoid contamination of the property so the future of my family can still have natural and healthy food.
I feel (I might be incorrect ) that the farmer (large or small) that is doing things today as they were done long ago probably has healthier animals. I don't feel that cattle should be in a tiny stall and fed only grain and hay. I don't feel chickens should be locked in a cage and fed only feed. I love the taste of true grass fed beef, as the farm we bought from in TX was truly grass fed. They were born and butchered at the same farm and they never bought grain or supplements. That is how my small scale homestead/farm will be. We only use natural fertilizer (chicken, cow and horse poo). My chickens and kids do my dandelion control, the chickens lone those things. I don't know terminology for how we run things I just know it's chemical free to the best of our ability. I want to avoid contamination of the property so the future of my family can still have natural and healthy food.
OrganicFarmWife
Crowing
You really need to check out your state's NSA society. They can put you in touch with other farmers of like mind as you, educate you, they have a political voice and try to fight for farmers who are trying to do this. I do not agree with everything our NSA board does, but it would be an invaluable resource for someone in your position.
Chicken girl 15
Songster
I'm not sure what the NSA is but I actually work for the "feed man" for our area. And he has set me up with many farmers from "back in the day" and he loves getting his customers in contact with each other to encourage "small farm" relationship.
Funny about the "feed man" he delivers more hay and bedding than he does grain. He also gets as much of his food for his family from his customers. He would rather pay $10 for a Cornish X I raise than $5 for one from the store. I'm all about bartering and trading goods or services between farms and neighbors.
Funny about the "feed man" he delivers more hay and bedding than he does grain. He also gets as much of his food for his family from his customers. He would rather pay $10 for a Cornish X I raise than $5 for one from the store. I'm all about bartering and trading goods or services between farms and neighbors.
OrganicFarmWife
Crowing
That is great, it sounds like you already have a source.
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