Horse Talk

[abigalerose]

Can someone shed some light on something for me please?
When people talk about colt starting they always say "do multiple 15 minute sessions a day and spend x amount of days/weeks/months working up to getting in the saddle" but if you watch colt starting clinics you'll see that all of the trainers start the colts within a matter of hours/days, so time wise this makes sense to me becuase they have to teach people everything in a limited amount of time, but if you listen to what everyone says this would make you think that a colt started within hours/days would be ruined. So why isn't it?
And why do some people say weeks/months before you get in the saddle and some say hours/days?
Unless it's just a difference of opinion but it seems every educated person goes with the longer route and every famous trainer goes with the short route

I like to take things slow, but I'm a little confused on other people's time frames.

 

[naturalfeddogs]

It depends on how the horse progresses as an individual, and the trainers method as well. They tend to be different. One of our two Belgian draft horses was 14 when we got him, never saddled in his life. Once he understood how to lunge, and was responding on the lunge line, and accepted the saddle while lunging, we were on him, and within 90 days under saddle in the arena we took him out for his first trail ride. He did wonderful. If along the way he hadn't understood something, or just had some trouble we would have had to go back a step and work a little more on the previous lessons. But he did fine so we kept moving on. It just depends on the horse and how the trainer trains, as well as what the horse is being trained for. That also makes a difference.

 

[I Love Layers]

So today my younger sister and I were going to ride around the yard. The sun had just set so it was dark already, my dad came to help my younger sister saddle Bert, our old mare, up. Apparently when she took the saddle off last time she unhooked the cinch from the saddle instead of the girth from the cinch

My younger sister is 11 so I don't know how she doesn't know how to saddle a horse

She doesn't even know the difference between a bridle and halter

When I was 10 someone had to lift the saddle on Bert cause she didn't have such a sway back, but I could do everything.

 

[I Love Layers]

Also this is a 15 year old ranch horse I'm looking at for my mom and older sister.

The first picture really led me away due how uphill she looks, and how hard the saddle would he to keep on.

The second picture looked almost downhill now..

 

[abigalerose]

Well.. Maybe she's just standing on an actual hill

 

[I Love Layers]

That's what I thought

I was going through the pictures fast and was like what!?

 

[ChickenLover200]

I stand my ground when my mini comes toward me (unless invited), I make him go back. This was the#1 thing I started working on at the start of training. I felt that getting him to back out of my space instead of likewise, was like me taking dominance. He does back well. I went from a lot of pressure to a little pressure and now that I have a rope halter, it is even less pressure. At times, he's afraid of the whip because I believe this was one the tools utilized to abuse him, typically the head area, so I'm hesitant to wave it too much around his head. He's used to the whip rubbing on his rump, but won't move off of any taps on his body, legs or neck.

I watched the movie "Buck" recently, and this conjures up a couple of scenes in my mind. In one, he's talking about a client's horse in one of his colt starting classes "You see that? That is a disrespectful horse. It's kinda like a teenager taking out the trash when you tell him to, but he gives you the finger as he walks out the door . . . " Next cut, he's working with that horse himself. "That's asking nice (the horse is still standing in place). . . . That is not being so nice. . . . .That's better" (as the horse moves off). The point is, you use as much pressure as is necessary to get the horse to do what you want. Of course, you then want to back down on the pressure and still get the result, but it sounds like all your backing down has achieved is Eli thinking that you don't really mean it, so he doesn't have to do it.:/

Freaking out and running around you in wild, crazy circles with the nose tipped to the outside isn't respect, or fear, or anything even remotely desirable - it's the horse avoiding the pressure by going out of control. It's a way of the horse asserting a sort of control itself by refusing to let you control it. If an animal has so much pent up energy that it has to run around and act like an idiot before it's ready to settle down and listen, you may have to wait through some of that, but it doesn't count as lesson time (though if it's got that much energy, at least you are out of range when it acts out by bucking and kicking!). The reason that I suggested yielding exercises is it gives the horse no excuse for not listening; you are right there, up close and personal, able to fine-tune the pressure, any refusal on his part is very pointed and obvious. You can hold the whip with the lash gathered up in your hand, so that's not waving about and causing excitement; you can use the butt end to bump with. The point isn't to create pain or fear, you are just trying to make not doing what you want physically and psychological uncomfortable enough that the horse will seek release by doing what you are asking it to do.

Pulling the horse's head toward you throws him a little off-balance, he will naturally seek to restore that balance by moving his hind end in the opposite direction. Looking at his backside and stepping toward it focuses your energy and creates mental pressure in that area. Using a voice command like move over, step over, whatever  will tell him that just standing there isn't what you want him to do. Using the butt of the whip to bump focuses the energy even more, and makes the pressure tangibly physical, if the mental pressure didn't get the job done. If he's still so intransigent about not moving, you can poke him with the butt of the whip - it's really uncomfortable, you can't just lean into that kind of pressure. When he steps away (as surely he will at some point in this escalation), you say "good boy" and release the pressure, immediately. Drop the whip hand to your side, relax your shoulders, pivot on the foot closest to him so that your body is facing the same direction as his body and don't even look at him. That's release, and a lot of people don't give it quickly enough to really reward the horse. Eli can't possibly be so thick as to not "get it" if you do it right.

After a minute, ask him again, and escalate to whatever level it takes to get that step away. Release. Eli's a smart boy - by the 3rd or 4th repetition, you may only look at his butt and he steps away. Obviously, the goal is to get the response with just a small amount of pressure, and you won't have to give that extreme level of release every time, either, but you are exaggerating things to make it very clear to you both. When you get Eli moving away from pressure at the hind end, you can progress to getting him to move forward rather than just sideways (raise the whip hand behind him, extend your hand with the lead in it to your side and a little behind you,  and use the voice command, "walk"). Dropping the pressure behind, changing the lead (and whip, if you are still using one) from one hand to the other and extending the whip hand in front of him puts the pressure in front, he should yield to the pressure and whoa or turn back and head the other direction, whichever you want him to do. It may take a few sessions, but you can have him "lunging" at a walk on the end of a lead rope, with just your hands and voice. 

I agree. That is really good advice. And I'm sure Eli knows by now that you're not going to hurt him, he also probably knows that acting a certain way will get him out of doing what you want him to do, becuase you won't keep the pressure on him. A lady brought her horse to me to work with, and right now I'm just halter breaking her, she's a very sassy mare and when she first got to me she was super ear shy. I tried all sorts of things to get her over it, including just gently working my way up by touching the base of her ear then dropping pressure, and repeating all the way up her ears, but she wasn't having it. She's kind of a mean little snot, well, she was, so I had to break out the tough love with her. I held tightly to her lead rope, right under her chin, because she likes to rear and I need to be able to make her step backwards really quickly if she tried to rear (this is how her owner showed me to do, she use to train all her own horses until she got too old, which is why I'm working with this mare) and then I reached up, and grabbed her ear, not painfully or anything, but just grabbed it and kept my hand around it while she threw her head every which way and then the second her head stopped moving I let go, I probably did this twice with each ear, and now she'll let me rub all over her ears, bend them back and forth, whatever I want without a care in the world. Even though she acted like a scared spooky horse and I didn't want to push her too far, I kept the pressure on until she realized what I wanted and she's came a long way. The first day with me she would run from me, if I put a lead rope over her neck and held her still she'd put her head way in the air and I'd have to wrestle her halter on her, when I tried leading, just at a slow walk, she reared. Now she'll come stick her nose right in the halter while I stand in one place, I can play with her ears, lead her around, pick up her front feet, and put my arm over her back. It just takes knowing when to keep the pressure on and when not to push them too far. I think with Eli you can put more pressure on him then you are putting, and once he realizes that just because you're putting pressure on him doesn't mean you're going to hurt him, things will go a lot smoother, he may act scared until he comes to the realization but once it clicks I bet he'll be like a whole different horse

Same with June, if you've been following this thread since the beginning you'll know that a girl I went to school with offered to come out and help me with training June when I first got her (I didn't have a CLUE about teaching horses stuff then) and this girl trains horses for people, as well as her own, she even charges more than twice as much as I ask, and I thought she would be helpful, well she put June in the round pen and CHASED her with the whip, June was running, eyes bulging, kicking, biting, trying to jump over the panels, and this girl tried to lay her down for being "disrespectful", she even told me June was a bad horse, which I knew enough to know she wasn't. So I took to the Internet for advice on what went wrong and how I could fix it, and a lot of people told me that I'd probably never be able to teach June how to lunge because she'd be scarred for life. But with patience and knowing when to push and when to back off, we finally figured it out. Now she round pens better than any horse I've ever had and she even seems to enjoy it. We're even working on Liberty circles. And that was the whole reason I got into training, that's how a lot of people in my area train horses, in fact I couldn't find anyone who doesn't, and I don't much care for it so I took matters into my own hands. Luckily now I have my cousin to help me, as well as that lady who's horse I'm training (she's got about 10 more for me!), she raises cutting horses and use to train all of her own and is actually pretty well known around here, but she just can't do it anymore. It's not really an apprenticeship since I'm not there helping her train, but she has a lot of horses she's going to let me work with, and she's been giving me good advice. She did have a pro trainer she took them to but she said he was really expensive and she just wants them started and not trained for cutting, she also said she doesn't really like the guy and wants someone who shows compassion for the horses. And she said she wants to help me becuase she was once in the same position I am.
But anyways, I think a lot of it is going with your gut feeling and knowing if you're pushing your horse too far

Well I'm halfway through the movie Buck and I think Buck Branaman might be my new favorite trainer.
@ChickenLover200 You should watch it too

Thanks for the advice - both of you! we cancelled our Netflix subscription, so I can't watch that movie on here, but I'll see if it is at the library. Im sure it is.

Ok so now that you mention about your trainer friend chasing June, it brought up this old memory. So last year, I started working with Eli, but decided to not do anything til this summer because I had no round pen. BUT when I was working with him, I got really upset for ONE reason. My dad got involved. Sounds dumb, but I really did get upset and discouraged about this. #1 it was like he thought I couldn't do anything wih Eli (he still thinks that, but I WILL prove him wrong), and #2 he knows absolutely nothing about horses. That's where the major problem came in. This is when I knew Eli needed a different approach. I had just gotten him started trying to lunge. he actually did a few circles for me at a walk, but then dad got involved. He kept whipping Eli's legs so he would keep moving in a circle, scared to death galloping. It made me cry (that makes me sound weak, but I am not) watching and I couldn't stop him. With no release of pressure, Eli learned nothing and that's probably the biggest reason why he won't even move for a lunge now. He came to relate this exercise as being beaten and whipped till "the trainer" was done "playing" with him like a toy. He related the release of pressure as the end of hard work and pain and NOT doing what is wanted.

 

[abigalerose]

Well I believe the whole movie is on YouTube, so that'd be a bit easier than going to the library

Yes! That's exactly what happened with June! I had her where she'd walk a few rough circles around the round pen, then that girl came over and whipped her and chased her around and scared her, so I gave her some time off and took a new approach after I watched some YouTube videos and got advice from my cousin. The biggest thing with June was that she didn't want to move away from me and out of the middle of the circle, and if she did she'd try to run me over. Eveyone said more pressure but I was scared id make her feel the same way that girl did.
But they were right, I did need to add more pressure, I just had to know when the right time to drop it was. One thing that may have helped is before I taught her to round pen I taught her to disengage her fore and hind quarters, she's not very good at it but she knows when to get out of my space, so when I tried round penning her, she didn't listen quite as well becuase she was a little worked up, but when she came into my space, a couple firm thumps on the neck with the stiff part of the whip got her back out, and when she backed off of me I immediately stopped, and then she realized pretty quick that I wanted her to stay on the fence. And then once I got her to stay on the fence I built up pressure slowly to get her to move out, wave the whip, then wave and kiss, then slap the ground, and then a tap on the rear and immediately drop pressure even if she only takes one step, pretty soon all it took was a wave of the whip or slap on the ground to get her to go around the pen. And we've practiced so much that it takes very subtle cues now.
Just make sure you do lots of desensitizing with the whip before and after every session, slap the ground and build up to where you can stand beside him and whip the ground real fast while he stays relaxed, throw it over his back, rear, neck, around his legs, etc. and rub it away with the stiff part of the whip. You want him to respond to the pressure when you apply it but not be afraid of the whip. When you desensitize him just keep repeating it until he stands relaxed with his head down and ears forward, hopefully he does some lip licking or sighing to let you know he's calm

 

[ChickenLover200]

Thanks! I'll try that.

 

[chicken19]

I understand that people buy horses without knowing anything, I've even done it before by buying a horse that was too advanced for me, now I know better, and I never blamed the horse. But that's not a reason for someone not to train a horse how they like. The person buying the horse should educate themselves ahead of time. And I know realistically that it'll never be that way in the world, but it's not on the animal or the type of training it has. Now I personally would not train a horse to do those types of tricks unless I 100% planned on keeping that horse forever, and if I made sure I was well educated in all the other training leading up to those tricks first. And I know people will say "well you can't promise you're gonna keep a horse forever becuase you don't know what circumstances you're gonna be under in the future" no. I don't believe that. When you have kids you don't say "well I really love this kid, and I plan on keeping it, but you never know, I might lose my job in the future and need to sell it" and for me it's the same with horses and dogs, unless I buy that animal knowing beforehand that there's a possibility of me selling it. There's no possibility of me EVER selling June. She'll die with me and when she does she's gonna be buried on my property even if I have to did a 10 foot hole. So in other words she's a horse that I could teach Liberty tricks to if I wanted to, and if I ever have the skills to do so. I've also heard way too many bad things about clicker and treat training. To me, pressure and release is the only way to go.

And good luck with your cattle!

I agree 100 Percent.
There are some people in this world who will keep certain horses for their entire lives. No matter what. I'm like that with my soulmate Chess.

If you want to liberty train, I did that with Chess. I highly, highly reccomend taking a clinic or buying a book from Jonathan Feild.
He makes Liberty simple and easy.
He is great at teaching the basics of how horses learn. The excersizes are simple and easy and build a very strong, mutual respect bond.
He never hits his horses or uses harsh methods, and he is always very open to new ideas

I bought a book from him on Liberty and it has so much content in it, I could only read a page or two at a time!