How am I doing?? and whats causing this

[Arielle]

There is none and that is the point. There is nothing scientific to support the value of "fermented feed".
Fermented seems to be just an inoffensive name for sour.

I have asked poultry nutritionists (PHD and DVM type) about this practice and I assure you that they are astounded at the idea that anyone would do this to chickens.

They have cited fears about leeching of nutrients, potential introduction of harmful yeasts and acids into the initial parts of the digestive system (especially the crop) and providing an environment conducive to growth of harmful pathogens. Those pathogens of concern include these that I found cited in Wikipedia-

Some examples of facultatively anaerobic bacteria are Staphylococcus spp., Escherichia coli, Shewanella oneidensis, and Listeria spp. Certain eukaryotes are also facultative anaerobes, including fungi such as yeasts. . .

Staph, e. coli, listeria - scares me ! !

I studied animal science in college.

I feed my chickens PICKLED feed. THat is what it is. THis was also fed to the dairy cows as silage. We often eat it as sour kraut. Carefully innoculated fermentation. NOT spoiled feed. I actaully have my fermented feed last longer as it does not spoil when it get wet.

As for the growth issues, these cornish crosses grow so fast that the protein needs to be very high and the whole formulation of the grain is important to support balanced growth betweent he muschles and bones and tendons. Please have a look at the hatchery web sites as a few do post the protein levels appropriate for these chicks.

I fed 22% fermented feed to mine and had no leg problems.

Good luck. Interesting project!!

 

[Angelicisi]

I bow out, after this post lol I must bite my tongue.
Pine Roost, your chicks look good. Keep it up, keep an eye on the week ones. You're doing a great job. Didn't mean to blow up your thread

I like to think the "industry" doesn't set the standards on which ways are the best ways to care for our birds. I usually hear how to better the birds lives from what the large scale operators do. FF on a large scale is too much time to manage feed for the large scale operators making the cost effectivness part - not cost effective and we all know its about money on a large scale. So just because the big guys don't run with it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

ChickenJerk at least you're genuine.

FF works for me. It works for thousands of others also. To state that it should be stopped before a list of diseases happen is ignorant. I could list a long list of possible diseases one can get from overall bad husbandry and honestly its pretty darn hard to mess up a batch of FF lol Have you tried it? Try a batch of 10 chicks. Half on dry, half on FF...If you had a bad experience maybe try again, find a mix the birds thrive on and you'll see it does take adjustments to find a great recipe. Or at least don't scare people off of it with no good founded reasons. The FF is not causing and slipped leg issues PR asked about :/ and the birds pictured seem to look great.

My customers like my CX on FF better than others on regular feed. "More flavorful" and "rich flavor" were two recent reviews on FF vs dry feed taste tests.
I also free range from dawn til dusk so they get a few acres to roam and pick up some natural flavors lol

What do your friends think of yogurt or cottage cheeses? Danger list? The FF buckets I have bubbling smell sweet not rotten, is it the Name that bothers you? Coin a new one to ease your city folk fears.
My doc has me on loads of fermented goodies that help my guts...but there's a dang scary list of bactierias that cause all sorts of things too, if they were present to begin with.



Where's beekissed!? She has the factual data, actual risks and proof is in the pudding. Yes there's science too.
Ug.
Best of luck to y'all

 

[Arielle]

Angelicisi-- don't forget to stop eating all cheeses, especially the blues. No more vinegar. No balsalmic, no unfiltered apple cider vinegar. Drop the mushrooms too-- though Dr Furman says 10 grams a day reduces breast cancer by 30%. BUt that study must be wrong.

As for fermented feed, mine smells lovely, like the silage in the cattle barn. Not spoiled.

I choose to feed my children based on discussions with a well educated doctor-- not one driven by the government mandates. Meaning that I tend to think for myself generally and I know that studies are often funded by corporate money. I remember the Louisiana crude and the dispersants being studied in an ongoing project-- paid for by the oil company. It creates a catch 22 -- and not everything gets studied that should be.

I have better health because I consume probiotics; the same probiotics in the supplements for my horses. WHy not include the chickens in good health too. Especially if we arre going to eat them for our good health too.

OP hope you find an answer to your problem with the legs-- I really do think the % protein should be much higher. Often people use 28-30% protein the first few weeks and then drop it down a bit. IF nothing else, they are all edible at whatever age you need to cull.

 

[enel 1]

I think the reason it isn't implemented on large scale farming is it isn't cost effective, we all eat fermented food...imo

 

[Beekissed]

Do you think that the 17% grower that I have them eating is enough to make then grow like they need to? I do have 2 heat bulbs on them, mainly because it has been getting below freezing in the nights. Should I take them off heat even with the low temps?

Your brooder could use some space...they need more room to grow out in there. These birds don't need as much heat as regular chicks as they have a very high metabolism and so are just a little hotter in the core than normal. You might try having a cool side of the brooder and a warm side so they can escape the heat from the lamps. Your grower will be fine, you don't want to accelerate growth on them...that's what causes the health issues in meat birds.

There is none and that is the point. There is nothing scientific to support the value of "fermented feed".
Fermented seems to be just an inoffensive name for sour.

I have asked poultry nutritionists (PHD and DVM type) about this practice and I assure you that they are astounded at the idea that anyone would do this to chickens.

They have cited fears about leeching of nutrients, potential introduction of harmful yeasts and acids into the initial parts of the digestive system (especially the crop) and providing an environment conducive to growth of harmful pathogens. Those pathogens of concern include these that I found cited in Wikipedia-

Some examples of facultatively anaerobic bacteria are Staphylococcus spp., Escherichia coli, Shewanella oneidensis, and Listeria spp. Certain eukaryotes are also facultative anaerobes, including fungi such as yeasts. . .

Staph, e. coli, listeria - scares me ! !

Let's start you off with just a few...and this will apply to the following post as well. You aren't seeing it here in the states because we don't have the regulations about our CAFOs that other countries are now implementing...in other words, the US doesn't mind if their livestock are raised full of meds. The other countries are trying to find a way to keep CAFO stock healthy without the use of meds because their countries are placing higher restrictions on such things.

You might want to put down the scotch..it could be blurring your reading and comprehension abilities. Here's some light reading for your nutritionists...who are no doubt paid by major feed companies to say what they say. Who else hires poultry nutritionists?

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610
You might want to read the conclusion, in particular, on this study.

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin640.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724
I like the last lines of this particular study:

Thank you for taking the time to relate your, and others, anecdotal experiences.

There are a number of scientific studies on this subject. I have found that they are difficult to access even in the abstract form. I understand that the highly educated, experienced, regarded and very well paid professional nutritionists I have asked about this subject have access to these studies. They do not seem to dispute the laboratory scale science but they do have issues with the practical application. They know of no instance where large scale implementation of this practice has been implemented,

If this practice was so beneficial and at such a small cost I suspect that the billions of commercial chickens raised in the US alone would be fed in some like manner. But alas - none are. All the great improvements in your birds that you have related would be of immense value to the poultry industry for just adding water and a little yeast or bacteria to the feed. Wonder why they haven't adopted the practice. Or why in third world places poultry production has not included these miraculous and inexpensive husbandry techniques?

BTW - I drink Scotch and have NEVER had Ebola Hemorrhagic fever. There you have it - proof positive. Scotch prevents Ebola.

I think the reason it isn't implemented on large scale farming is it isn't cost effective, we all eat fermented food...imo

It is being implemented on a large scale farming paradigm...just not very much in this country, where the agriculture is controlled by the major feed/seed corporations, as is all the research related to livestock nutrition. Why would they do studies on something that can increase the nutrition of the feed and decrease the use for meds~for free~ when they are being paid by the the companies that would stand to lose the money those meds make? Monsanto and Merck...they can't very well bottle and sell something that folks can get for free from the air, can they? They are trying...you will now see probios added to poultry feed by the major companies, but why pay for that when you can make them stronger and better at home and for free?

I'm willing to bet there isn't a poultry nutritionist out there that would advocate this method of feeding for the simple reason that their universities get research grants from Monsanto and Merck.

 

[Arielle]

THanks Bee for posting those links. Good information as always.

 

[Pine Roost]

Thanks everyone for the good info. These chickens continue to surprise me. Yesterday I moved the brooder pen to a new location, away from my house due to smell. After the slow and gentle move, there was a dead chick in the brooder! A fat healthy one at that!! Whatever.....I'm doing everything I can to raise them healthy. Other than the one with the sideways leg, who seems to be doing fine otherwise, all of the remaining chicks seem to be doing great!

I got these 50 from Meyer simply because they had the best price. For my next round of 50 birds, does anyone have a suggestion for another good hatchery I could try?

Thanks.

 

[Beekissed]

Thanks everyone for the good info. These chickens continue to surprise me. Yesterday I moved the brooder pen to a new location, away from my house due to smell. After the slow and gentle move, there was a dead chick in the brooder! A fat healthy one at that!! Whatever.....I'm doing everything I can to raise them healthy. Other than the one with the sideways leg, who seems to be doing fine otherwise, all of the remaining chicks seem to be doing great!

I got these 50 from Meyer simply because they had the best price. For my next round of 50 birds, does anyone have a suggestion for another good hatchery I could try?

Thanks.

Don't have a suggestion for a hatchery but I do have a suggestion for less health issues and for a lower mortality rate. Try getting them out in the open air and sunshine for foraging and for the exercise they need to sustain their quick growth, at an early age. Two weeks is not too early. You might also try raising them in the early spring so you won't have to heat them up with lights for very long and they can escape that heat in the brooder.

With the fermented feed and their feces being scattered out on the grass you won't be dealing with smells and a build up of feces in the brooder. Deep litter will also help with that. The raising of these birds doesn't have to be a losing proposition. It can be pleasant, smell good and result in very healthy birds that grow at a more normal rate.

 

[Pine Roost]

I ordered 50 more chicks from Hoover's Hatchery, that are due 1-28-14. They are a Cornish Cross, and should mature in 8 weeks. I hope I have good results, because they were cheaper than anywhere else I have seen. $60 for 50 birds + shipping.

 

[popsicle]

Thanks everyone for the good info. These chickens continue to surprise me. Yesterday I moved the brooder pen to a new location, away from my house due to smell. After the slow and gentle move, there was a dead chick in the brooder! A fat healthy one at that!! Whatever.....I'm doing everything I can to raise them healthy. Other than the one with the sideways leg, who seems to be doing fine otherwise, all of the remaining chicks seem to be doing great!

I got these 50 from Meyer simply because they had the best price. For my next round of 50 birds, does anyone have a suggestion for another good hatchery I could try?

Thanks.

I'm getting some from Cackle in several weeks. I've been wanting to order from Central Hatchery, but a friend placed the order and went with Cackle.