How does Organic feed vs non-organic feed for chickens affect the Egg quality?

[U_Stormcrow]

I'm here to... agree with @Shadrach . At least here in the US, if you compare two similar chicken feed products, one "standard", one "Organic", you typically see both a substantial price increase and a deficit in Methionine in the Organic product. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with Organic, it simply happens to *often* be an inferior product. Its very difficult to find good Met sources, particularly in the plant world. Some of the best commercial scale plant sources of Met still are mostly produced using non-Organic methods.

Met is so important that the US allows a small amount of synthetic Met (appears as DL-Methionine on the ingredients) to be added without preventing the feed from being labelled "organic".

Worse, at least here in the US, the "Organic" label is often found in conjunction with other buzz words intended to market to the ignorant, "vegan" or "contains no animal products", "contains no synthetic chemicals", "soy free". So you start with a product that is already challenged to provide adequate Met levels, then remove from your ingredient lists: Animal products (high Met levels, relatively speaking), synthetic Met (the DL Methionine I mentioned above), soy (among the best of the plant sources for Met at reasonable price, particularly because once the oil is extracted (for soybean oil, a valuable product), you are left with an inexpensive byproduct, soy meal, which is both low fat and concentrated protein - making it a superior feed ingredient to various nuts and seeds, for purposes of providing needed Met levels, and cheaper too.

So, why is Met important? Met is key to connective tissue formation - the skin, tendons, digestive system. Its also like the engine on a train, in thatMet is the first amino acid in line during protein formation. No Met and you have a railyard full of cars that can't make a train - every other amino acid present is wasted for purposes of protein formation. Met can also become certain other Aminos through processes natural to a chicken's biology - but those other aminos can't be converted back into Met by that same bioogy - its a one way street.

That's the longer, more boring answer. In and of itself, Organic tells you something about the means of raising the ingredients, it tells you nothing about the nutrition. In practice, however, it tends to be both more expensive and less nutritious.

Where you want to draw the line is up to you and your own risk tolerance.

 

[Birdinhand]

I'm here to... agree with @Shadrach . At least here in the US, if you compare two similar chicken feed products, one "standard", one "Organic", you typically see both a substantial price increase and a deficit in Methionine in the Organic product. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with Organic, it simply happens to *often* be an inferior product. Its very difficult to find good Met sources, particularly in the plant world. Some of the best commercial scale plant sources of Met still are mostly produced using non-Organic methods.

Met is so important that the US allows a small amount of synthetic Met (appears as DL-Methionine on the ingredients) to be added without preventing the feed from being labelled "organic".

Worse, at least here in the US, the "Organic" label is often found in conjunction with other buzz words intended to market to the ignorant, "vegan" or "contains no animal products", "contains no synthetic chemicals", "soy free". So you start with a product that is already challenged to provide adequate Met levels, then remove from your ingredient lists: Animal products (high Met levels, relatively speaking), synthetic Met (the DL Methionine I mentioned above), soy (among the best of the plant sources for Met at reasonable price, particularly because once the oil is extracted (for soybean oil, a valuable product), you are left with an inexpensive byproduct, soy meal, which is both low fat and concentrated protein - making it a superior feed ingredient to various nuts and seeds, for purposes of providing needed Met levels, and cheaper too.

So, why is Met important? Met is key to connective tissue formation - the skin, tendons, digestive system. Its also like the engine on a train, in thatMet is the first amino acid in line during protein formation. No Met and you have a railyard full of cars that can't make a train - every other amino acid present is wasted for purposes of protein formation. Met can also become certain other Aminos through processes natural to a chicken's biology - but those other aminos can't be converted back into Met by that same bioogy - its a one way street.

That's the longer, more boring answer. In and of itself, Organic tells you something about the means of raising the ingredients, it tells you nothing about the nutrition. In practice, however, it tends to be both more expensive and less nutritious.

Where you want to draw the line is up to you and your own risk tolerance.

you make some good points. Organic can be a gimmick if you’re not careful and don’t do your due diligence on the actual quality of the feed in question. I’m a fan of organic in general but I’m no dummy. High quality soil is key to high quality ingredients as are good ratios of ingredients with science based analysis. It’s definitely possible to find high quality “conventional” ingredients and low quality “organic” ingredients. So, for me, I have done some pretty hard core sourcing for my organic grower formula, I buy it wholesale, direct from the mill, at about half the going rate and since I do my own butchering I get to see the effects before the chicken even ends up on the table. The mill I go with has proven to me to have the best feed for the money, producing relatively lean meat and super healthy birds. Since my kids are eating this meat as their primary source of protein, over a significant portion of their growing life, it makes sense to me to provide the cleanest source I can. Industrial chemicals, even in small doses can have very strange hormonal effects on children. I have a male relative who was ordered off of milk when he was a teenager by his doctor because of the hormones in conventional milk were thought to be causing him to form breasts/gynomatia. He stopped consuming conventional milk and milk products and the issue resolved, in short order. I have a sneaking suspicion that beyond a certain point “normal” gender development in humans is messed with by many of these new chemicals, some of which mimic gender differentiating hormones, even at very low doses. Phalates, leaching from plastics, in particular are thought to potentially mimic female hormones. Buying organic ingredients in bulk for me, is a relatively inexpensive precaution for me with respect to providing good, reliable nutrition for my family. But yes, it’s imperative to pay attention to the quality of ingredients either way and maybe more than anything, paying attention to the effect that diet may be having on one’s family development.

 

[BDutch]

you are left with an inexpensive byproduct, soy meal, which is both low fat and concentrated protein - making it a superior feed ingredient to various nuts and seeds,

Soy meal is not a byproduct.
Imho the GMO soy for animals is an inferior product because its makes the world a poisonous place. Buying GMO products that are made to be poison resistant means the farmers can use and do use lots of poison so they dont have to work on the land to save the soy crop.
The gmo soy for animal feed is a huge industry and the high nutritional value made it possible to create monsters (selection) that give so much meat, eggs and milk that the poor creatures have become a kind of monsters for the profit of factory farmers. Eating meat, buying eggs and dairy products from factory farming contributes to a polluted world.

I'm glad that most backyard chicken keepers have heritage breeds and mixes that don’t lay 350 eggs In 1 year. These commercial creatures , when kept longer, get physical exhausted. Many die after 3 -4 years because they became a degraded type of chicken. Who need extreme feed to lay an egg every day. The heritage breeds and mixes who lay less eggs don't need so much proteins in their feed.

The backyard chickens most of us have don’t need the commercial feed with lots of soy to flourish. Especially not when the chickens have an opportunity to free range outside in the field.

The organic feed in my country is just right for the organic chickens. These hybrids are slightly different from the hybrids they use in factory farming. And the feed is balanced for what they are.

I have fed my backyard chickens organic most of their lives and my oldest who is almost 10 now is still a very healthy chicken. Last year she was still laying in spring and summer. And she’s the first to fly on top of the run when she sees a four footed predator.

 

[Perris]

Soy meal is not a byproduct.

You are right.

"Summary​

Global soy production has increased more than 10-fold over the past 50 years. This has been driven by increased demand for meat – three-quarters of global soy is fed to livestock – and to a lesser extent, soybean oil and biofuels. ... "
and into the weeds:
"Over one-third (37%) of global soy is fed to chickens and other poultry; one-fifth to pigs; and 6% for aquaculture. Very little soy is used for beef and dairy production – only 2%... In the chart we see the allocation of soybeans to three categories. Processed products include all animal feed from soybean cake (i.e. 70% of global demand)"
https://ourworldindata.org/soy

 

[Shadrach]

As is often the case in feed debates and many other chicken health related matters, the type of chicken, the conditions they are kept in and the amount of money and effort involved in their keeping outweighs the importance of any single factor like the feed one supplies.
In the simplest of terms, all of the above boils down to one single factor and that is cost/profit.
The majority of the studies I've read concentrate on high production birds in both egg laying and growth rates; usually fast growing meat birds (broilers) and high production hens such as Red Sex Links.

From this article.
https://attra.ncat.org/publication/organic-poultry-production-providing-adequate-methionine/

"Protein and amino acid requirements vary considerably according to the productive state of the bird, that is, the rate of growth or egg production."
"According to Sundrum (2005), there are no effects on animal health from feeding a suboptimal diet or low-nutrient diet, but the birds may not be fully realizing their genetic potential."
"Low-nutrient diets or feed restrictions are often used in the starter phase to slow the growth of fast-growing birds in order to reduce metabolic disorders and lameness."
Interesting implication that is reported in other studies. Concentrated feeds tend to have long term health reprocussions.

It is possible to feed a chicken an organic diet that would be seen to be deficient in methionine by the commercial sector provided one doesn't expect maximum preformance over a short time frame and one doesn't keep them in the same conditions as the commercial concerns.

Comparatively high fat diets are fine if the chickens can work off the excess calories through exercise, much like humans. Sit on a couch in front of the TV stuffing ones face with chocolate and pastries is liley to be bad for your health.
Do a couple of hours of intensive exercise on such a diet each day and the health problems are likely to be considerably less.

The simple fact is, if one keeps chickens of a similar breed in similar conditions to the commercial concerns then one can expect similar problems in feed and health. Unfortunately the fully confined in coop and run model is much like the modern commercial model with less stocking density.
Let the chickens out from dawn to dusk on average soil on a large enough area and the chickens will regulate their own diet and feeding organic feed becomes a more realistic proposition.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Soy meal is not a byproduct.

Fine. Soy Meal started as a byproduct. It remains one of the best plant sources of Methionine for animal feeds, AND doesn't bring the concerns of higher fat source seeds which can make it hard to balance MKe levels, or the concerns for heavy metal accumulation and off flavors from certain animal products (i.e. fish meal). It is also reasonably priced and readily available.

 

[Sally PB]

Where you want to draw the line is up to you and your own risk tolerance.

This, exactly.

Buying organic ingredients in bulk for me, is a relatively inexpensive precaution for me with respect to providing good, reliable nutrition for my family. But yes, it’s imperative to pay attention to the quality of ingredients either way and maybe more than anything, paying attention to the effect that diet may be having on one’s family development.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. For some of us, the cost of the ounce is within the family budget, and the trade off is readily apparent. For others, not so much. Whether they even want to look at the problem at all is another issue.

I don't buy the "I don't have time to do that" argument, for the most part. If it's important to you, you will make time for it.

The gmo soy for animal feed is a huge industry and the high nutritional value made it possible to create monsters (selection) that give so much meat, eggs and milk that the poor creatures have become a kind of monsters for the profit of factory farmers. Eating meat, buying eggs and dairy products from factory farming contributes to a polluted world.

Profit. Bingo. And the fact that there are so many people on the planet Earth to feed.

I doubt this will get hashed out in my lifetime.

We can't even get the government to decide to stop switching back and forth between Standard and Daylight time, and what I hear says that most people HATE the switch. Michigan might put it on the ballot in November...

But I doubt it:
After being introduced on Thursday, Albert’s bill was assigned to the Government Operations Committee, which has become a repository through the years for legislation unlikely to be enacted.

 

[BDutch]

Very little soy is used for beef and dairy production – only 2%...

In my country we have many milk-cows with an extreme milk production and huge udders. These are not the same species anymore as the cows we had 80 years ago. They need feed with a high amount of proteins to produce lots of milk. About Dutch cows :

The average milk production of the Frisian-Dutch cow is 7,000 kg per year (ranging from 5,500 kg on rations without concentrates to more than 9,000 kg on more intensive rations).

From levende have about Dutch milk cows

And I read some good news today about the meat sold in one of the supermarkets:

Jumbo (the name of the supermarket) stops meat stunts: no more offers on fresh meat
Protein Transition
Jumbo is the first supermarket to stop with offers on fresh meat, in line with government efforts to reduce the consumption of animal protein.
:sorry, this NRC article it's behind a paywall

Nowadays more people seem to understand that factory farming with poor conditions for live stock is not honourable.

 

[Birdinhand]

To put into perspective the potential for minute amounts of a given chemical to have profound effects, I can add one more thing. There are instances of where the parts per billion of human birth control chemicals, after having passed through the human and into the septic system have been enough to disrupt the reproductive cycles/ovulation of fish in surrounding rivers, after leaching through the soil and into the aquifer. There are more examples of very very tiny amounts of hormone or hormone mimicking chemicals in very dilute concentrations having similar effects.

What this tells me is that there is a lot we don’t know and simply don’t have the resources to test for when the cause and effect is obscured. Within reason I feel that it’s worth sticking with the tried and true when it comes to my children’s reproductive futures.

 

[Folly's place]

It's been interesting, not in a good way sometimes, to see, over decades, how this all plays out.
Lead and asbestos used to be everywhere, not any more. Then DDT, malathion, and lindane, also everywhere, now also gone. Cigarettes, symbols of adulthood, not so much any more. Now we all worry about plastics, and newer crop treatments, and GMOs.
Somehow many of us have so far survived all this, probably damaged, but surviving.
And never mind how public health efforts, actually better diets, and vaccines have impacted our survival!!!
Mary