How effective are livestock guardians? Desperate for your answers

[zzGypsy]

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The pups were xrayed? Before 4 mos?

yes, that's what the breeder says.
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didn't say I did. I said the mom to these pups is unhandleable. what I want is a dog that strongly prefers to be in the field with his/her charges and not looking for an earscratching on the back porch. one that can be handled when needed for things like vet care. the male of my two pups seeks attention a LOT and may end up as a porch dog, which may limit his usefulness at his job. the female of the two is more independent, although still somewhat attention seeking. she may turn out to be the right mix of independence and sociability. who know, maybe the male will too. or not. time will tell.
the point I was making is that I don't have a made dog who can teach these pups about their job, and that I've read/been told that's the best method for training them, backed up by some careful oversight and human correction.

 

[centrarchid]

At work we have about 10 LGD's guarding about 200 goats and sheep. Large number of dogs used because ruminants divided among several paddocks for research purposes. Only four are pure GP with balance either GP cross or Anitolian (spelling?) cross. I am unable to see any difference in guarding behavior. The crossed animals do seem more mobile and tolerant of central Missouri summer heat.

 

[dainerra]

the main problem with buying pups from an "un-handle-able" mom is that you don't know if the reason she can't be handled is a training issue (did they raise her to be super intolerant of humans?) or does she have temperament problems that could be genetic?
Nature or nurture, pups learn a lot of their behavior towards humans from the dam before leaving the litter. If mom was so unmanageable, how were the pups handled for health checks after birth? Did they just get left with Mom and hope that none of them died or failed to thrive?
No, I don't own LGD breeds. I DO own other powerful breeds, plus the "alpha roll" theory being bad is pure common sense.

I will say that, yes, I alpha rolled a dog once. And yes I knew when I did it that there was a chance that I could get hurt (actually I realized that AFTER I did it) but it was an emergency situation. We had a lab that had disappeared for over a month. We found that someone had a lab that looked just like him chained in their yard. We stopped to ask about it and they denied it being our dog. I said "oh ok. Because my dog is microchipped so it would be obvious if he was mine" and drove home. The next morning, my dog was outside waiting on the porch and the next time I drove by their place they had no dog, but that's a little off-topic. When he came back, he was over-weight and always ate like he was starving. He was super-excited to be back on his raw diet, but had developed some food aggression. I had been working with him on that and he was in the yard chewing on a bone while I worked in the garden. My DD, 3 yrs old, came running out of the house and he jumped up growling and started towards her. I basically tackled him and yes I was right in his face. I didn't bark like an idiot, I said "what the *^^* do you think you are doing??" He didn't struggle much, probably because he had never really been anything other than a submissive dog. Later I realized that I would have been toast if he decided to put up a fight, but Mama Bear instinct had kicked in and I think that attitude is what put him into submission, not the fact that he thought "oh she knows how to alpha roll, she must be head dog"

Being "dominant" isn't a matter of doing alpha rolls and standing over the dog and making them submissive. It's just THERE, for lack of a better word. I don't like all of Milan's techniques but I can't deny that he does have a presence with dogs when he walks into a room. We all know people like that; it's like an aura around them. They come into a room and everyone takes notice. You don't need an innate power, just confidence . 99% of dogs aren't little Hitlers with plans to take over the world; they would much prefer that someone else be in charge. So simply laying down some rules for behavior, following through with them, providing food and water, and BAM your dog thinks that you are the king of the world.

If you want to compare dogs to wolves, look at how the "alpha roll" works in the pack. The leader sees someone getting out of line (perhaps a young male that is trying to push up to the table too early). If he is just hungry and doesn't want to wait his turn, then the younger animal will back down and roll HIMSELF over to show "hey, I know you're the boss. Please don't hurt me." If it's just another step in a pattern of a young wolf preparing to challenge the leader, a real fight may or may not break out at the moment, but you know that one is coming soon. There will be a lot more posturing and the younger animal will reluctantly back down. But, it's pretty obvious that one time soon that isn't going to happen and there will be a fight.

Shoot, in the cat world, a lower ranking cat will "roll over" to appease a more dominant cat. I don't see anyone going around saying "alpha roll your cat!!" That would be great to see though and if anyone tries it, please post video when you get back from the ER

 

[TDM]

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I saw from your website that your dogs are really just housedogs, raised in town, and get their exercise walking down a sidewalk on a leash.

If you ever have a chance to live on a farm with real working LGD's, you will see where most of these people are coming from.

 

[zzGypsy]

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what I understand from the breeder is the mom came to them that way, and was half grown when they got her. she was able to be handled without fighting or biting, but apparently sees no reason to allow it. that is, she stays with the goats, comes in to eat, and returns to the goats. she keeps her distance from people, but is not agressive towards them. just moves off if approched. mom is pyr/kangal.

for her management of the puppies, she whelped them in the barn, and stayed with them for a couple days, then returned to her goats. she returned to the barn regularly to feed the pups, but as soon as that was done and the puppies were cleaned up, went back out to the pasture. the puppies were handled from the first time the mom went back out to the goats, to check for health, give shots, etc. not handled a lot. when I went to pick them up, they were like, you know, puppies... curious about me, some more forward, some less. easily distracted by the entrance of their goats into the barn. (licking their faces, knawing their ankels, puppy stuff.)

the father is strongly a flock dog, not a porch dog, but comes when called, seems happy to have his ears ruffled, not overly excited about attention gives a little wag or two, but quiet and handleable. dad is pyr/anatolian.

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great image, that's funny!

 

[watchdogps]

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My website hasnt been updated in two years, I really need to do that. No I do not have a big working farm, still just a small place with a few dozen chickens, guineas and ducks. However, I fell in love with the dogs while spending time on working farms, and my dogs have been with all varieties of animals for short periods of time.
It really matters not where you are, the learning process is the same for any dog, in fact any animal, when it comes down to chemical and neurological reactions. Studies of the brain functions tell us that. That is why operant conditioning works with everything from dolphins to dogs to bees.

 

[TDM]

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Let me guess. You consider yourself a breeder.

I would never buy a LGD from you. Your dogs are housedogs and unproven . For all we know your dogs could have been the rejects from a working farm. Farmers around here tend to buy their working dogs from other farmers. It is important to us that the offspring come from proven stock.

 

[watchdogps]

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The pups were xrayed? Before 4 mos?

yes, that's what the breeder says.
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didn't say I did. I said the mom to these pups is unhandleable. what I want is a dog that strongly prefers to be in the field with his/her charges and not looking for an earscratching on the back porch. one that can be handled when needed for things like vet care. the male of my two pups seeks attention a LOT and may end up as a porch dog, which may limit his usefulness at his job. the female of the two is more independent, although still somewhat attention seeking. she may turn out to be the right mix of independence and sociability. who know, maybe the male will too. or not. time will tell.
the point I was making is that I don't have a made dog who can teach these pups about their job, and that I've read/been told that's the best method for training them, backed up by some careful oversight and human correction.

If you didnt see the xrays, I wouldnt believe it. Most people arent going to do them on crossbred pups and the xrays would have cost more than the dogs did. I'm not sure if Penn Hip does certs at 4 mos old, but they would be the only ones who might and a regular vet probably couldnt tell anything from a 4 mos old xray.

I misunderstood when you said "like these pup's mom", I thought you meant you wanted one that independent.

Yes, the best teacher for a pup is an adult LGD, hands down! I love watching them do this. One of my pups is now a 4 yr old and he has trained his little sister and a whole litter of rescue pups. He's amazing.

 

[TDM]

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Wow, you just insulted Kubota owners. I own a Zetor myself, a Czech tractor, so I got insulted too.

Did you know that almost all tractors under 50 hp are made overseas these days?

 

[watchdogps]

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That's fine, the japanese tractors will run. Just not for as long, and you will probably need to repair or replace them sooner.

Actually, if you had looked farther into my site you would have seen that my foundation grump came to me as an adult that was a working dog. The owner wanted her shown and we bonded so closely there was no way I was sending her back.
Also, if you know what to look for, you can pick a good LGD even without livestock present. I am always amazed at the number of rescue dogs we get in, or owners that come to us for help because they got a dog from a working farm, and the dog has an temperament that isnt really a good LGD temperament. Why didnt that "working farm" see that?