mame1616 wrote: I am so disappointed in this thread. When I joined, I thought it would be an intelligent exchange of ideas. It seemed to have started that way. The articles and web sites that were shared were very informative, and made the person's point without being controversial. But between the super-defensive Big Ag lovers and those still living the Civil War (it's over, you know) I can't even read the comments for all the anger and criticisms. I've re-read threads when people are accused of saying things and calling names, but it's mostly the sensitive Big Ag people saying it - none of those on the side of alternative methods are calling names, merely making comments you don't care for. Thou dost protest too much, Big Ag. In the thirteen years since I became vegetarian and the 10 years I have had chickens I have read a lot of material. I am open to reading both sides. In fact, I WANT to know what's good about Big Ag, because I can't believe stuff like that can happen be allowed in our country, but I just can't find enough to disregard what I have read about the negatives. I am the food person in the family. I am trying to influence my relatives to think with their fork and their conscience. I don't allow my mom to purchase factory meat anymore. I don't want to give out false information. But it seems that here, as well as anywhere else that Big Ag has been questioned, they react with name calling and indignation and all this talk about feeding the world. I can't count how many times I've read about tons and tons of grain languishing because too much was grown - again. This is the influence of the gov't and Monsanto. 80% of grain grown today goes to feed farmed animals. What if people ate it instead? I read recently that, if practices continue like they are, that farmed animals will be eating as much grain as four million people. Kinda ironic when they aren't even supposed to be eating it, huh? Like I have said several times, and keeps being ignored, and O.N. has said it, we don't hate, feel sorry for, or pity the farmers that choose to live this way. Please read that again. Just because we disagree with your working practices does not mean we feel those other things. It is the companies that have ruined family farm after family farm, as well as people's health and the environment for years without feeling any responsibility - all in the name of money. You think Big Ag cares about you? If so, maybe I do feel sorry for you. As far as accusing others of not having any facts, Big Ag supporters have been a little shy of facts themselves. If Big Ag was really right, they and their supporters wouldn't invest so much energy trying to tell everyone else how wrong they are.
First, Q9 & I segued into U.S. history only insofar as it touched on the origins of Federal power (resulting regs and how far can they/should they extend - a subject germane to this thread). Second, what, exactly, is `big ag'? Would the definition of `big ag' encompass the 45,000 individual farmers in the Midwest who are Members of MFA? http://www.mfa-inc.com/web/guest/home Con Agra, ADM? Just didn't see anyone in the thread post up any vehement, reasoned, apologies for any specifically defined `cabal'.
`factory meat', well, yes, sustainable with 9 billion humans on planet (2050)? Getting iffy at that point. How to make some estimates: http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/BIOL/classes/bio160/ClassResources/Case_Studies/Case3_Energy/Case3_Answers.htm
I prefer tissue cultured meat product for the long term (Tang instead of Orange juice, so to speak - folks are still eating Spam - I rest my case).
First, Q9 & I segued into U.S. history only insofar as it touched on the origins of Federal power (resulting regs and how far can they/should they extend - a subject germane to this thread). Second, what, exactly, is `big ag'? Would the definition of `big ag' encompass the 45,000 individual farmers in the Midwest who are Members of MFA? http://www.mfa-inc.com/web/guest/home Con Agra, ADM? Just didn't see anyone in the thread post up any vehement, reasoned, apologies for any specifically defined `cabal'.
`factory meat', well, yes, sustainable with 9 billion humans on planet (2050)? Getting iffy at that point. How to make some estimates: http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/BIOL/classes/bio160/ClassResources/Case_Studies/Case3_Energy/Case3_Answers.htm
I prefer tissue cultured meat product for the long term (Tang instead of Orange juice, so to speak - folks are still eating Spam - I rest my case).
It is unclear how much cultured meat a single cell could yield. Cells in culture are believed to undergo a fixed number of doublings, called the Hayflick limit. The Hayflick limits of farm animal muscle progenitor cells have not been well-established. It has been shown that satellite cells cloned from turkey breast muscle express telomerase. 25 This finding suggests that some domestic animal satellite cells may generate enough daughter cells to produce huge quantities of cultured meat. (For instance, back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that a single parent cell with a Hayflick limit of 75 could theoretically satisfy the current annual global demand for meat.)
http://www.new-harvest.org/img/files/Invitro.pdf
Certainly less labor/land/resource intensive, yes? But, no SoylentPorterhouse, yet. And how to clean up all the offal from all the Commercial Processors? Well, I thought most would have embraced thermal depolymerization (high temp/pressure conversion of ANY organic material into #2 fuel oil, distilled water and useful mineral solids) but, the Changing World Technologies', down in Carthage, MO., TDU closed down this year as Butterball didn't renew contract to deliver the `turkey parts' (should have built it near St. Louis and fed it trash instead). I had hoped to have my organs harvested and be fed into the hopper with my turkey buddies for recycling... However, there are other prospects on the horizon:
http://www.new-harvest.org/img/files/Invitro.pdf
Certainly less labor/land/resource intensive, yes? But, no SoylentPorterhouse, yet. And how to clean up all the offal from all the Commercial Processors? Well, I thought most would have embraced thermal depolymerization (high temp/pressure conversion of ANY organic material into #2 fuel oil, distilled water and useful mineral solids) but, the Changing World Technologies', down in Carthage, MO., TDU closed down this year as Butterball didn't renew contract to deliver the `turkey parts' (should have built it near St. Louis and fed it trash instead). I had hoped to have my organs harvested and be fed into the hopper with my turkey buddies for recycling... However, there are other prospects on the horizon:
A farmer with 350,000 chickens can expect to lose about 21,000, or 6 percent, of the flock each year under normal conditions. A poultry farmer who opened one of the Georgias newest alligator farms reported that the farms 6500 alligators devoured about 2,000 pounds of dead chickens per day. Mortalities from the operations 20 chicken houses are ground into a white paste prior to feeding to the alligators. There are now ten farmers in Georgia who are exploring the synergies of raising chickens and alligators. Research in Florida, where dead swine were fed to pond-raised alligators, demonstrated a faster rate of gain as compared to alligators fed a diet of meat and fish by-products (Walker, Lane, & Jennings, 1992). One problem with this disposal system is that alligators become less active during cool winter months and are not as effective at disposing of carcasses during this time. The estimated feed-to gain ratio was 4.5 kg (9.9 lbs.) of dry matter intake per kg (2.2 lbs.) of weight gain (Walker, Lane, Jennings, Myer, Brendemuhl, 1994).
http://fss.k-state.edu/FeaturedCont... 8 - Non-Traditional & Novel Technologies.pdf (a document, I'm sure, is kept handy by FEMA/Military in the event of mass human casualties, as well).
Monsanto as evil? Around here farmers look to decrease the inherent uncertainty of their prospects any way they can; essential to the National Security, making 80% of what they would on a manufacturiing floor, praying for rain... Monsanto is somewhat like the Standard Oil CO. of GM. It has the BT and will probably be adding wheat over the next few years (initial genome work completed 8/10) but, there are other ways to shuck the ear: Developing Countries are pressing ahead.
Radiation, et.al induced mutagenesis (potential to rapidly design crops to thrive in specific areas)
http://fss.k-state.edu/FeaturedCont... 8 - Non-Traditional & Novel Technologies.pdf (a document, I'm sure, is kept handy by FEMA/Military in the event of mass human casualties, as well).
Monsanto as evil? Around here farmers look to decrease the inherent uncertainty of their prospects any way they can; essential to the National Security, making 80% of what they would on a manufacturiing floor, praying for rain... Monsanto is somewhat like the Standard Oil CO. of GM. It has the BT and will probably be adding wheat over the next few years (initial genome work completed 8/10) but, there are other ways to shuck the ear: Developing Countries are pressing ahead.
Radiation, et.al induced mutagenesis (potential to rapidly design crops to thrive in specific areas)
(i) Mutant barley varieties that thrive in an up to 5,000 meter altitude in the inclement highlands of Peru. The adoption and cultivation of these mutant varieties account for over 52% yield increase between 1978 and 2002 translating to significant increases in income generation for the Indian farmers. For the socio-economic impact of improved barley mutant varieties, the Peruvian government has awarded the 2006 Prize of Good Governmental Practices to the principal counterpart. The second example relates to
ii) Mutant rice varieties that thrive in the high salinity region of the Mekong Delta in Vietnam. The breeder of one of these varieties, with export quality that made it up amongst the five top export rice varieties, got the 2005 National Science and Technology Prize of Vietnam for this
variety because of socio-economic impact.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/012/i0956e/i0956e00.pdf This is a pretty nifty technology that extends traditional methods into a new realm.
There is a lot of research going on around the world and will accelerate:
http://plantbiol.genetics.ac.cn/the_xue_lab/publication/TIG_Xue.pdf
http://www.biolsci.org/v06p0228.htm
I was born in 1954 (world poulation: ~2.5 billion), when our oldest grandson is 50 there will be 9+ billion - tissue cultured chicken/fish `product' and rice for everyone! (I wants me my protein pill, thank you).
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ii) Mutant rice varieties that thrive in the high salinity region of the Mekong Delta in Vietnam. The breeder of one of these varieties, with export quality that made it up amongst the five top export rice varieties, got the 2005 National Science and Technology Prize of Vietnam for this variety because of socio-economic impact.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/012/i0956e/i0956e00.pdf This is a pretty nifty technology that extends traditional methods into a new realm.
There is a lot of research going on around the world and will accelerate:
http://plantbiol.genetics.ac.cn/the_xue_lab/publication/TIG_Xue.pdf
http://www.biolsci.org/v06p0228.htm
I was born in 1954 (world poulation: ~2.5 billion), when our oldest grandson is 50 there will be 9+ billion - tissue cultured chicken/fish `product' and rice for everyone! (I wants me my protein pill, thank you).
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