How to tell legitimate puppy ads from scammers and puppy mill ads.

[GitaBooks]

My cousins bred Labradoodles once and sold the puppies on line. We helped find a home for one of the puppies and the mother, and we still pet-sit them sometimes!


Cleo (short for Cleopatra)


Cleo with her puppies


Chipsie (short for Hatshepsut)

 

[dainerra]

I wouldn't support anyone purposely breeding mixes without a solid explanation of why but if you do, make sure that both parents are tested for whatever is recommended for their breed. If a parent themselves is a mix, they need to be health tested for everything that BOTH breeds can have. A labradoodle, for example, needs to be tested for everything that a lab and a poodle might have.

 

[GitaBooks]

I wouldn't support anyone purposely breeding mixes without a solid explanation of why but if you do, make sure that both parents are tested for whatever is recommended for their breed. If a parent themselves is a mix, they need to be health tested for everything that BOTH breeds can have. A labradoodle, for example, needs to be tested for everything that a lab and a poodle might have.

We have poodle mixes because some people in my family are allergic to dogs. They are the awesomest dogs in the whole universe!!!!

However, some of them are prone to health problems. It is due to the poor breeding of the parent breeds, though, not the hybrids themselves. I study breeds of animals and love it, but I've found that tons of them suffer from inbreeding, dwarfisim, ect. Our standard goldendoodles have arthritis pretty bad, but they are so friendly and so wonderful. I love poodle mixes.

 

[dainerra]

I've never seen a doodle mix that was actually hypo-allergenic. Actually, it's been proving that there is no such thing as a "hypo-allergenic" dog. Some individual dogs may trigger less of a reaction in some people but another dog of the same breed can be a nightmare to the same person. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-karen-becker/allergy-dog_b_1917329.html
Doodles are all over the map as to what they are. I've seen some with poodle coats but a lab undercoat. A pure lab coat. A pure poodle coat. A horrific mix of both coats in a groomer's nightmare.
Some have the poodle brain, some a lab brain. Most of them are spazzes but that is more irresponsible breeding in general than the fact that they are mixes.
A responsible breeder of either labs or poodles isn't going to sell a breeding quality dog to someone who plans to breed doodles. So they either start with a lower quality of stock in general or they mislead people as to their plan and breed doodles instead. Often, it's a combo of both since many buy pet quality dogs that are on limited registration (and often with a spay/neuter contract) and then they breed anyway.

That is why the doodle breeds are so prone to health problems. There are a very few breeders, mostly in Australia, who are doing things correctly and health test their dogs. Most of the breeders in the US aren't willing to invest the money into doing it correctly.

A healthy doodle can only come from healthy parent stock. That means generations on both sides of the family that are thoroughly health-tested. Every poodle ancestor tested for all the potential health issue. Every lab ancestor tested for every potential issue. So you're looking at investing a thousand in each pairing. and then when you get to breeding the second generation of F2, each dog has to be tested for everything lab AND poodle since they can inherit both. So you're looking at $1000 or more in each dog, twice as much money as each dog of a single breed.

 

[snow5164]

It did cross my mind that since she won't let me go there, maybe she could send me some photos of her dog areas.

She told me the people she lists for are

her father
one friend of his  (both are older people)
her sister-in-law

But I also found a fourth breeder name.

I have owned dogs for 25 years and own a dog boarding kennel in Canada .
I bought from a breeder last spring, saw the mom and whole litter, saw the welping box where she was born, played with mom and saw breeders credentials. Saw dads family tree and was mailed certificate of authenticity.I wouldn't buy with out a good website and a walk threw. Breeders who breed purebred dogs aren't on Craig's list or kijiji. They are too busy, rescues are on there trying to get you to adopt for $200 the dog who bit her previous owner, or worse,and oops! Babies from family dogs.
We have rescue dogs and a purebred, with the purebred we knew the temperament before we got her , with the others their past life makes them who they are. It is really like apples and oranges.
Also anyone breeding multiple breeds is a huge red light, unless they are completely apart on the property.

 

[GitaBooks]

Some breeds of dogs cause more allergies in my family then others. Our doodles don't, but labs and other more greasy dogs tend to (dogs with longer, silkier hair seem to cause less problems). But doodles aren't only good because of their coat, they are also so friendly, so loyal, they can be shaved in the summer and allowed to grow out and be warm in the winter (they have soft, curly, adorable coats). They are just so awesome. They do vary, but variety is okay in dogs, because all dogs are just so awesome!

My dog is like a best friend to me. He walks with me all the time (off the leash, he usually comes when called

), is great at learning (really, really smart. Can learn a trick in one day), is healthy (he's around 8 years of age), and is just so much fun. He loves fishing for frogs and hunting voles and gets along with chickens, cats, and other animals.

The only health problems that my doodle has are itchy ears, but most pure-bred dogs suffer horrific health problems (I'm writing a book on all the dog breeds of the world). I study health problems in domestic animals and their causes.

Our doodle dogs


Cinnamon (the smartest dog in the world)


Cedar (so awesome)

 

[KathieMc]

I'd also like to add that just because she can give you a vet reference and provide a shot record, doesn't mean the litter was seen by the vet...and she could pick up a shot record from any farm supply store or online and give the shots herself.
I would ask if she has any proof of this puppy or it's litter mates being seen by the vet and confirm her "proof" with the vets office.

Like you, over the years I looked for all three of my German Shepherd Dogs through personal ads and when I called asking questions, I was always allowed to visit their homes and meet the mom and sometimes the dad...if he was owned by the breeder. But, these breeders were also only raising GSD's.

 

[Finnie]

@Gitabooks I think it's great how much you love your dogs. (But I don't want to get too sidetracked here with an off topic discussion about poodle mixes.)

There has been some excellent advice on what to look for in a reputable breeder!

And I also appreciate the feedback on what constitutes a red flag.

I did not know that a vet reference can only tell you whether they are a client. I was hoping they could confirm which breeds were owned and total number of dogs.

I have also learned that it would be a good idea to look up the state laws governing the sale of puppies. In this case, it is the state of Kentucky. I have heard before about the rules for selling pets on line. (You can read that on the Porter Turkey website, and I think they have a link to the law. It's why Porter's can not sell turkeys as pets. The rule does not apply to agricultural livestock.) But I was under the impression that the rule only applies where the buyer does not get to meet the seller face to face and inspect the pet prior to the actual sale. Meaning it applies to online sales with shipping. I'm sure there are more rules though that I should learn.

It is looking more and more as though even though I would like to give this seller the benefit of a doubt, that she is stretching the circumstances way too thin.

I have purposely refrained from telling the breed, because I was hoping this discussion would be able to apply across the board. But I will admit that part of my problem is that I am trying to find a rare color of a very common breed. The show breeders just do not want this gene in their pools, and that rules them out completely. That normally is the route I believe in going for a puppy search.

And since it is a very common breed, the middle ground breeders who do not fall in the puppy mill category are many, some of which are better than others. But I don't think it's fair to say that every single one of them should be looked down upon. Or be told they have no right to be breeders. I reserve that for the unscrupulous puppy mill/dog abuser types. And there seems to be a lot of counts against this lady.

More discussion is gladly invited.

 

[GitaBooks]

I agree, small-time breeders have more time and money to put into a single breeding dog then a larger breeder can ever put into five females of the same breed. Mid-ground breeders breed their dogs because they love them and love puppies, and they know their dogs and their health by heart. You can really get the best of both world, large-time breeders and small-time breeders.

 

[dainerra]

there is a reason that you will be less likely to find any responsible breeder producing a rare color, show breeder or not. rare colors tend to be recessive and that means that not only will you be doubling up on those color genes to get what you want but all of the other nasty skeletons in the genetic closet. Most health problems are recessive. Allergies, skin issues, eye problems, even cancer risk will be increased.

Since the color is not common, you have less dogs to choose from for your breeding program. That means other issues have to be overlooked to insure that you get the color you want - the first to be bypassed is often temperament. Instead of breeding the best of the best dogs to produce the next generation, you have to use "almost as good" dogs simply because they have the color you want. The next generation you have the color a bit more common but you've already doubled up on all of the health issues as well. You'll have more inbreeding since so many dogs that share the recessive color gene will have common ancestors. Plus, the easiest way to cement a recessive trait into a bloodline is through close breeding of parent/child, brother/sister, etc