I have a question about Clostridium perfringens

[Eggcessive]

I also had a chicken suffering from what I believe was Clostridium Perfringens, and it was the information in Nambroth's thread that helped me to save her.

My local vet didn't have a clue - the only thing he checked for in the poop sample I took was worms! However, I am convinced that it was CP - her poop was very similar to the photo in Nambroth's post - green, with undigested grains and bits of grass, and often quite 'explosive' when she pooped, as if she had gas in there as well. It also had a strange smell - almost sweet, but not quite - not stomach-turning, but then again not something you would choose to smell - it was really very bizarre, and I have never smelt chicken poop like it before or since.

I wanted to bold this for emphasis. I don't know if I mentioned it in my old thread or not, but this describes the odor very well. Not that I am a connoisseur of chicken poop odors (I never thought I'd be saying that) but when you work one on one with a sick bird that has, essentially, explosive poo.. you notice the smell.

The gut gas-- which avians normally do not get the way mammals do- combined with the undigested bits and the odor seem to be large clues as to figuring it out. Adding in a fecal exam by a vet knowledgeable in looking for gram negative/positive bacteria, and a diagnosis can be made.

I'm a retired RN, and many years ago I took care of people with clostridium perfringens or gas gangrene in an extremity. I can remember old surgeons talking about how you could recognize the sweet odor immediately when one sniffed the wound. Actually, I think you could tell when you entered the room.

 

[mithious]

You have some great answers here. If you can, it is worth it to get a gram strain run on a fecal sample from your affected bird. Some vets may not even require a visit if you can provide them with a clean, unadulterated sample of fresh droppings from your bird.

If you absolutely can not do the vet visit/fecal exam of your bird, then I agree that your best option would be to treat only the single bird with an antibiotic known to treat Clostridium.

And yes, only one bird can get it. It has been my experience and the experience of others that in general it tends to be birds that either get into things they shouldn't (like compost piles, etc) or birds that are easily bullied or pushed off of the feed by others and will eat findings in the soil. Birds with weaker immune systems also seem more prone.

If your rooster is anything like mine, he will starve himself before he pushes the hens off of feed, and may be picking for spoils in the soil, mud, etc.
Or, if he is a young rooster, he may be getting pushed around by the older birds.Or, maybe he is just assertive and just managed to find a bit of nasty stuff to eat. It is common especially if any feed gets tossed outside and sits in the dirt or mud for a while. If your weather has been like my in the North East, it has been a wet summer so far!

Can you describe his symptoms in detail, and maybe share a photo of his droppings?

Darn it, I just cleaned the poop boards, plus my cell is all I have for pic's and probably wouldn't show a good enough pic, but I can try later for sure! He IS the low guy and the Dominique's are in with the layers I have left from a bear attack. Dominuqye's in general tend to be flighty and a bit scared. He is eating though and drinking, but I watch them everyday, and noticed he does get chased off by the bigger girls. One day I found him under the ramp at the bottom and he had apparently been picked on when he went outside and I had to pick him up and put him in his coop.

symptoms;

Comb and wattles very pale
explosive, watery looking poop
the smell as described...which I noticed with surprise about 5 days ago?
I switched to fermented feed when I got the young un's this spring and am seeing a difference during the hot spells, in the FF. I asked on the FF for meat birds thread about it, but haven't gotten any answers as to whether it can go bad in the heat.
One morning, I found him in another coop on the door end of their roost. It was raining, so it's possible that he ducked in there and I didn't notice? Plus, it was in the integrating stage, so everyone had access to each other, on way or another. Possible that he ate someone's poopy shavings in there?
He is constantly at the water fount


casportpony...It's a guess. I wormed, treated for cocci, cleaned all coops, retreated and cleaned all coops, did the buttermilk and egg to put the natural flora back into all....still no improvement. I read the link Nambroth sp? sorry if wrong, put up on it, and what was written and the smell of the poop was what made me think it was a possibility. It was so strange of a smell that I was scratching my head thinking, do Dominique's have a different smell to their poop? I have had some definitely heat related watery poop with some of the other young un's but it resolved once the heat abated and they stopped drinking tons of water. He still is drinking like crazy.

Another thing. Dominique's have VERY different personalities than the Plymouth Barred Rocks and the German cross NH's. The Dom's are MUCH more scared of the others and most anything, they are very gentle birds, and just, well different. They still haven't left the coop they are currently in to go out in the run, with the exception of that one cockerel, which I think he was pushed out and it mostly likely wasn't voluntary.

I might have to have to build them their own coop and run. I had hoped that they would eventually integrate, and MOST of the issues aren't from the other chickens, some is, but more so the Dom's own personality. I'm having a very hard time explaining this part, as you probably can tell

Lastly, I have no vet here that will deal with poultry at all.( last year I tried to have a fecal test done and they would not do it ) I am so rural, there are no other options. Also, I have found I am battling a parasitic worm that I don't have a clue what it is, ( blood red and about 2 inches long and seems to be more prominent when it's really wet) so have been really focused on eradicating and hoping to build immunities to what ever it is, if it's possible. So have been a bit preoccupied with that. Worming 37 birds by hand, by myself is time consuming to say the least. I also have a pullet in the house that got an eye infection, think she got pecked? and had to hand water her with antibiotic's for two weeks and came darn close to losing her. Still working with her and it's been almost 2 months now? ( she is improving but is not fully recovered yet to go back out to one of the coops ) Soooo just assumed that his poop issues were heat related, until I read the article about the poop smell and it seemed to fit? Most of my issues are parasitic, so not so up on the disease stuff, so going by what I read and trying to match symptoms...also am still a little unsure of the whole fermented feed thing. I started it due to the immense loss of feed I found during spring cleaning and really needed to cut costs with the new birds coming this past spring.

Thank you ALL for your feed back. I sooo appreciate it. I hope I gave enough info for

 

[mithious]

Oppps enough for you all to see if you think this is what it could/might be?

Also, forgot to add, it is not the other birds that are keeping the Dominique's in that coop...I watched and think it is the dominate cockerel? They do sit at the poop door and peek out, which is why I suspect he was pushed out as one of the older gals or two went out.

Oh and yes, we have had a horribly wet summer here, so runs are mud poop soup. Since the bear attack, I have had to keep them all in the runs until we get an area of electric fencing in. I lost one other after the bear attack, one of the older hatchery gals, to a predator. The bear attack brought many predators to the area. I currently have the coops and runs surrounded with electric fencing, but no more supervised free ranging until an area is completely wired.

 

[casportpony]

What antibiotics do you have?

-Kathy

 

[Nambroth]

The others here would be much better to offer antibiotic advice, here, as they have superior experiences and knowledge than I do.

About the fermented feed... I am a supporter of healthy gut bacteria and fermented foods (I make many of my own for us), but that said, if at any point you question how safe the feed is, there is nothing wrong with switching back to feeding it dry. I used to ferment, too, but found it too easy to introduce "bad" flora or otherwise mess up the batch, especially when it was hotter, and so I stopped doing it. My chickens have had less problems on dry, high quality feed. It is a personal choice but you might want to discontinue it, at least for your sick rooster.

 

[casportpony]

The one time my vet suspected a *possible* clostridum infection she prescribed metronidazole twice a day for 14 days. I think the actual dose was around 50mg/kg twice a day. My hen also had a gram negative infection, so she also prescribed Baytril.

-Kathy

 

[mithious]

Got a pic. Like I said, it's a cell so sorry it's such poor quality!!!! This actually look better than even this morning's. It's usually mostly just water with a tiny bit of feed in it. This actually has quite a bit more feed in it. His comb has a really really light pink to it when I went out to take the pic also.

casportpony it's Duramycin-10 but I will have to get more, used most of what I had left on the little pullet with the infected eye. I had to treat her for quite some time. I think I have enough to do one, maybe two gallon doses. Also, now I am wondering about her too...she stopped eating the day before, but again, it was hot but is still not eating again and having the squirts also...sigh...I have straight buttermilk instead of water for her but she doesn't like it, or is off water now too???? ARRRGGGG

Nambroth, unfortunately, I already took down the temporary dividers, so I would have to put the whole coop back on dry feed and the waste is horrible. ( I watched them literally throw the feed out of the feeder and found probably 4-6 bags worth of feed in the bedding this spring, possible more, for 15 birds ) I really don't know if the feed is off, that's why I was asking on the FF for meat birds thread if it was possible but no one there answered that specific question.

Do you know? None of the other birds seem to be affected? Everything was going great up until the last week or so with the heat going way up, for us that is and all the young un's are from BYC breeders and northern climates. The Dom's are from right here in NH. So they should be acclimated to our climate.

This really is a huge bummer, as they had the best poops I had seen in a long time off this FF until now.

and my feed costs were wayyy down, due to less loss. The buggers won't eat the dry off the floor....the FF they will eat no matter where it is, even my fingers LOL.

Thanks both of you, I'm getting frustrated with myself. I got the best possible breeds off the best possible breeders I could find and don't want nor can afford to lose a one of them. They are all my breeders right now for next spring which is why I am desperately trying to keep them healthy and save the two that are under the weather.....

Nambroth, did you stop the FF due to problems? If so, what were they?

 

[mithious]

Sorry thought of one more thing. In all my running around taking care of everyone, it's possible I might have forgotten to wash my hands once????? I remember questioning myself if I had a couple times....I wash them in between each coop, and before touching the pullet inside, but might have messed up and forgot????? So maybe a cross contamination? ORRR a completely different issue...I have no clue right now to be honest!

 

[mithious]

The one time my vet suspected a *possible* clostridum infection she prescribed metronidazole twice a day for 14 days. I think the actual dose was around 50mg/kg twice a day. My hen also had a gram negative infection, so she also prescribed Baytril.

-Kathy

Can you get those off label? I don't have a vet that will have anything to do with poultry.

 

[casportpony]

Maybe something useful here, maybe not.
http://www.antimicrobe.org/b90.asp

-Kathy