I have a question about Clostridium perfringens

[casportpony]

The one time my vet suspected a *possible* clostridum infection she prescribed metronidazole twice a day for 14 days. I think the actual dose was around 50mg/kg twice a day. My hen also had a gram negative infection, so she also prescribed Baytril.


-Kathy

Can you get those off label? I don't have a vet that will have anything to do with poultry.

You can get just about any antibiotic for fish. Look up fishzole, that's metronidazole.

-Kathy

 

[mithious]

You can get just about any antibiotic for fish. Look up fishzole, that's metronidazole.

-Kathy

Oh HUGE thank you casportpony

we do have a store in town that might carry fish supplies. I'll call them and see if they carry it and check online if not!

 

[casportpony]

Fish stores might also have something like amoxicillin. Please understand I was *not* suggesting that you treat with metronidazole, I was just sharing my experience.

-Kathy

Edited to add: *not*

 

[casportpony]

Please see edit in my last post. Again, *not* suggesting treatment, but if you decide to get Baytril, this is a good place to buy it from:
http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

-Kathy

 

[mithious]

Maybe something useful here, maybe not.

http://www.antimicrobe.org/b90.asp

-Kathy

Nice, great article, thanks

Here's a few trains of thought. I got blood poisoning from the bear attack. One injury was on my arm. When I stir the FF I have to use my whole arm to get to the bottom of the bucket. Not thinking humans could cross infect, I didn't take precautions outside of washing hands and arms. All skin carries staph also..could that be causing this? Maybe I am depositing more staph or these two are more susceptible to a staph infection?

Another line of thought brought up by the mention of "spores" although in a different context, BUT made me think. It's been really really wet. Even my house plants are growing a few different kinds of mushrooms, as I keep my window's open and have fans blowing in. Could spores be getting into the FF and making them sick?

I just offered some dry feed to the pullet inside and she ate it even though she won't touch the FF anymore. She has started to drink the buttermilk, so maybe her tummy is feeling better and so far, no squirts yet, which seemed to happen as soon as she at the FF if not simultaneously.

Since we are at the point of trail and error here and she is in the house, she is the guinea pig right now....is it possible mushroom spore contamination of FF, OR did I pass on something to either the feed, or directly from me?

Seems the feed is the more likely method of illness, but still could be me....what do you think? What would your guess be? I have been under the weather lately myself, so one other possiblitly,

Could be the well water, but I'm not leaning that way as I would think they would ALL be sick in that case. Still gonna have it tested.

By the way, tons of mushrooms means winter is going to be horrid again...old wives tale that has stood true so far for this old broad

I still need to pick up more antibiotics for the med kit though and corid also....should probably get both antibiotics! Thanks again, that article has my brain thinking again...I was getting stuck

 

[Nambroth]

If the fermented feed works for you, by all means use it!
Alternatively, will your birds eat feed that has simply been moistened by water? Of course you want to feed them only what they can eat within an hour or two. So you would need to meal-feed them if you try this.
Feeders that prevent raking of feed out also help. I built mine out of 5 gallon buckets and it's done the trick. Every flock is different, though, of course! If yours do well on the Fermented Feed, proceed, just use care and watch for signs of problems when the weather does not cooperate.

I find it somewhat unlikely that you are causing harm due to your flora, unless you are spitting into the feed or something else equally rude. It's not impossible but unlikely.

Honestly, with as wet as it has been, it could have been anything outdoors. It would be my first guess, if that is indeed what you are dealing with. When mine had clostridium, it was also an exceptionally wet time for us!
Exceptionally wet weather + lower ranking or poorly chicken = more prone to infection. Just my observation. Some may disagree.

If your poor rooster is a lower status, he may also have a slightly weakened immune system just from mild long-term stress. This is not your fault, just, a fact of life for some of the birds that are lower status. My Coho, the one that had the confirmed clostridium infection, has always been the most prone to minor illness, by far, out of my flock. She is also the lowest ranked chicken and is very dramatic if the other chickens even so much as look at her wrong. She is sickly at least once a year, is prone to infections such as bumblefoot, and it would not be a stretch to say that in her case, rank and immune system seem to go hand in hand. This is not the case for everyone's flock, by any means, but it is something that I have seen in mine and in a few other people's as well. We just give her extra love (she's very snuggly) and check on her daily, as she is even more disturbed by being away from the flock than she is by being pushed around a little, so in the end we figure that her minor stresses are worth her quality of life with the flock. If they were being mean to her that would be a different matter, but it is just minor pushing around that a flock of chickens will do.

 

[mithious]

If the fermented feed works for you, by all means use it!
Alternatively, will your birds eat feed that has simply been moistened by water? Of course you want to feed them only what they can eat within an hour or two. So you would need to meal-feed them if you try this.
Feeders that prevent raking of feed out also help. I built mine out of 5 gallon buckets and it's done the trick. Every flock is different, though, of course! If yours do well on the Fermented Feed, proceed, just use care and watch for signs of problems when the weather does not cooperate.

That's just it, I am unsure if the FF is working ok. It was, up until a week or so ago. I'm not even sure if it's the feed, but that was my first guess, especially after reading your thread and links. Thanks again by the way. I do use some wet feed in the winter, with some eggs and a tad of yogurt or buttermilk off and on also. but as you said, only what they will eat in an hour. I wouldn't dare do that in the warmer weather, especially since I am questioning the FF that is supposed to grow good bacteria and "eat" the bad. I am not new to chickens, just the FF and a tad nervous, since I am working my way back into chickens and standard breeds only and can't afford to lose any as they are what I have to work with. As Ralf Sturgeon said, "start with what you have" or something like that. That is where I am at, working with what I have. I resisted the FF until the feed loss was so large I really had to try something different. Do you have a picture of the feeder you use? I would definitely be interested in trying that. I did give the little pullet in the house with an eye infection some dry feed and she did eat a little.

I find it somewhat unlikely that you are causing harm due to your flora, unless you are spitting into the feed or something else equally rude. It's not impossible but unlikely.

Well that's good to know, that it is less likely!

Honestly, with as wet as it has been, it could have been anything outdoors. It would be my first guess, if that is indeed what you are dealing with. When mine had clostridium, it was also an exceptionally wet time for us!
Exceptionally wet weather + lower ranking or poorly chicken = more prone to infection. Just my observation. Some may disagree.

If your poor rooster is a lower status, he may also have a slightly weakened immune system just from mild long-term stress. This is not your fault, just, a fact of life for some of the birds that are lower status. My Coho, the one that had the confirmed clostridium infection, has always been the most prone to minor illness, by far, out of my flock. She is also the lowest ranked chicken and is very dramatic if the other chickens even so much as look at her wrong. She is sickly at least once a year, is prone to infections such as bumblefoot, and it would not be a stretch to say that in her case, rank and immune system seem to go hand in hand. This is not the case for everyone's flock, by any means, but it is something that I have seen in mine and in a few other people's as well. We just give her extra love (she's very snuggly) and check on her daily, as she is even more disturbed by being away from the flock than she is by being pushed around a little, so in the end we figure that her minor stresses are worth her quality of life with the flock. If they were being mean to her that would be a different matter, but it is just minor pushing around that a flock of chickens will do.

See that is why I was leaning towards that as the reason. Wet weather, cocci and worms plus the treatments, he is definitely the low man on the totem pole and you used a VERY good word, he is very dramatic, as are all the Dominique's but he is even more so. I actually named him Alvin as a chick as he was very vocal and scared of his own shadow. I was having a hard time explaining and you nailed it with dramatic!!! What really had me sit up and pay attention was the poop smell. It is noticeably different. I personally wouldn't call it sweet, but it is not a truly bad odor, just not normal at all for chickens. I'm going to pick up the Baytril as soon as I can get some, and am giving him eggs and buttermilk, which the others steal from us but he does get quite a bit of it in him, for now until then. Thank you so much for ALL your info and if you do have picture of that feeder, I would greatly appreciate it. I didn't know they made them or is this a DIY feeder? That I can do also. I only went to FF because of the feed savings. I did notice, until recently, that their poop was MUCH better, but was wondering how it was going to work in the winter. We had -38F last winter and a frozen comb on the hatchery Rooster that the bear got. It got 4 of the hatchery hen's also. To be honest, they were/are, my test birds. I bought them to see if I could still do this chicken thing, test the viability of the land, and test for predation. All I have learned from them has been valuable, as I knew that we had cocci here, so treated the young un's until after their feet where on the ground.

The more I think about the FF and my plants...I'm wondering if the darn mushroom spores are a part of this also. Not so sure FF is for me either to be honest. It makes me nervous and adds, for me, a ton more work! Thanks again for all your help!!!

 

[Eggcessive]

I also used fermented feed for a 7 month period over a year ago, and I just got tired of the extra work involved. The chickens liked it and did well on it, but really, I didn't notice a big difference in them or their stools using it or not. I use both pellets and crumbles since I have young chicks and juveniles now, and everyone seems to prefer the crumbles. So I would say if you have a sick chicken to try Flock Raiser or unmedicated chick crumbles. The Flock Raiser might be a little large crumb which is good since they don't like powder. You can always add a little buttermilk and water to make it moist, or some ACV if you like.

 

[mithious]

I also used fermented feed for a 7 month period over a year ago, and I just got tired of the extra work involved. The chickens liked it and did well on it, but really, I didn't notice a big difference in them or their stools using it or not. I use both pellets and crumbles since I have young chicks and juveniles now, and everyone seems to prefer the crumbles. So I would say if you have a sick chicken to try Flock Raiser or unmedicated chick crumbles. The Flock Raiser might be a little large crumb which is good since they don't like powder. You can always add a little buttermilk and water to make it moist, or some ACV if you like.

That's a good amount of time to judge the validity of something Eggcessive. I too am finding it quite a bit more work and now that I am having problems with their digestive systems, atleast on the two, I have no problem going back to dry. I am using a mix of crumbles non medicated and pellets, both layer, right now, as I was trying to use up the pellets I bought. I didn't like the way they started looking in the heat and it turned to alcohol, the pellets did, really fast. Much faster than the crumbles. I can only mix up one day of feed, even with the crumbles, so was leaving one feeding, as told to, and mixing it, as soon as I was done feeding to give it an over night, to ferment.

The issue is the waste. I really can't afford to buy twice as much feed so they can throw it on the ground. That is the stumbling block for me right now. I would LOVE to know where, or see a DIY feeder that stops them tossing so much on the coop floor. They will not eat the dry off the floor. The FF they will eat no matter where it is.

I would feel safer with the dry feed right now, but need something to put it in that that they can't waste it. That was a LOT of feed in the bedding this past spring cleaning. I would guess I bought double what they were actually eating and with 37 chickens now, that is just not something I can afford to do.

I really don't feel comfortable with adding wet anything right now to their feed that is not fermented and "eating" the bad bacteria, or supposedly doing so...not convinced that it is when the heat get's up there, BUT I could be doing something wrong also???? OR it could be something beyond my control like the mushroom spores...they got in the house and into the aloe vera plant, so makes sense they got in the FF I would think?

I am not sold on the ACV either. I do give them apples. I cut them up, core and all and throw them out for them and they love it. I read a lot of testimonials on it, but no real studies that is has any real health affects, so again, the dry would be fine if I could find a way to feed without the waste.

I am giving Alvin LOL eggs and buttermilk, as well as the barred Rock pullet in the house. I do think, since one is stressed and possibly sick and one is definitely still under the weather but recovering well that Alvin, giving the Baytril a try is worth it and possibly retreating for cocci again might be called for, as the necropsy on Nambroth's chicken came back positive for it, even after she treated hers. It does make sense that since their immune systems are stressed and I know I have it on the land here, that they might not be building the immunities like a healthy unstressed chicken does.

Still that leaves the feeding method. That really was a LOT of feed wasted!!!!

Thanks for the suggestions, and support Eggcessive!

 

[Nambroth]

I have only 8 chickens right now, so you may need to use more feeders than I have depending on how competitive they are at feeding time. I also only add the amount of feed that seems right for them to eat in one day. I feed a mash, which they sure do pick through and TRY to rake out and spray everywhere! At first I made a home-made gravity fed PVC pipe feeder with holes drilled but they found ways to poop in it from time to time, and they could get all the feed to flow to the bottom because I have a few clever birds. Then they would rake it out and waste it. Mine also rarely will eat spilled feed!

What I did is actually very simple and DIY. I just searched online to see if anyone else has done it, and it seems a few folks have.
This is the closest I can find. If you can give me a day or two, I can get photos of mine as well.

(not my site or photos

http://toolmakingart.com/2008/06/10/chicken-feeders/

Anyhow, I took a clean 5 gallon bucket and cut holes for the birds to stick their heads into. Now, the key to preventing waste, is to cut the holes higher than shown in that image, and a bit smaller. Tall, narrow holes with all rounded edges and no sharp burrs seem the best. You will have to judge the height and size of your chickens as you don't want them to get abrasion from the edges of the holes. You want the holes just large enough to comfortably stick their neck and head in, and high enough that they can not "shovel" feed out with their beaks, but not so high that they rub their throat on the hole in order to feed. Does this make sense?

The above image also has a gravity fed PVC pipe and/or inverted water bottles placed into the middle. This would make them gravity fed as well. If you feed a LOT of birds with few feeders, this might be a good idea. For my small flock, I get away with two buckets, with holes, and NO PVC pipe. I just dump half a day's rations into each bucket and put the lid on. I place the buckets under my "poop board" so that the chickens can not jump onto them or roost/poop on them. I have some cinder blocks that elevate them out of the bedding. It is just right for my large fowl. You could also hang them if you have room for it. If you do hang it, make sure it is low enough that they won't harm their throats to peck "down" into the bucket at the feed.

The bucket makes it so that they can't get a foot in there to scratch it out with a foot, the holes are high so that as they fling it, the sides of the bucket contain the feed. The lid keeps poop out and also excess dust and litter. It is very easy to clean, keep dry, and monitor how much feed they are eating and what, if anything, they leave behind.