I have ANOTHER androgenous chicken😅

[BDutch]

Thank you for your encouragement; I really appreciate it. I had planned to write an article on this topic for the last article writing contest, but the rules include "no pictures from the internet, and no using photos taken by BYC members without their permission." I PM'd several inactive members in hopes of hearing back and being able to use their photos, but never did. I was hesitant to pour a lot of time, energy, heart and soul into writing an article only to have it disappear into the great vast BYC article wasteland as soon as I hit the "publish" button. (Because at least there is some hope of exposure through the contest.) But I love your idea for others to post photos and comments of their own unusual birds in the comments section of the article. I still have the article in draft; its working title is Extraordinary Birds! Chimeras, Gyandromorphs, Intersex/Hermaphrodites, Sex Reversals. I will tackle the article again, after I first reread to refresh my in memory the 200+ articles I read on the above conditions over a year ago!


This was my intention in creating this thread in the first place, to see what happens in real time instead of waiting years from now like I did with Big Girl. The poll will remain open forevermore, and anyone who wants to change their vote in the future is welcome to do so. There's no absolute right or wrong here, only our best educated guesses. For those who still believe Sonnet is fully female after viewing the latest photos below, stick to your guns; maybe she'll lay an egg soon. But I just can't convince myself of that.

All photos below taken January 7, 2024.
I'm not feeling anal I mean scientific enough to start measuring her sickle/nonsickle feathers, but feel pretty sure they are continuing to grow longer.
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Sonnet's clutch of 4 pullets (including her) was the last of 22 EE pullets hatched this year. (There are 5 straight-comb pullets three weeks younger than her.) Eyeballing Sonnet's body mass and height compared to all the other 2023 EE pullets, I estimate she is 50-60% heavier and taller than the other pullets. Not feeling scientific enough to weigh any of them yet either, especially since they are still maturing
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I had an overall sense that her saddle feathers looked unusual, but the variations show up better when photographed from directly above or behind. There are some very narrow and pointed feathers, but the wider feathers tend to hide them, since most all feathers are similiar in length. There are also some perfectly round feathers. To my eye, the rest look curiously elongated, with neither fully round nor pointed tips. If it's true that every cell in a bird has a sexual identity, it looks to me like many of Sonnet's saddle feathers are battling for supremacy. I am sure I would have never noticed the unusual saddle feathers if not for the more obvious ways Sonnet looks different from all the others.
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I'm currently unsure what to think about her hackle feathers, since some of my hens have fairly pointed hackle feathers too. Some of Sonnet's appear very narrow and pointed, but some round ones are also present. Same as with her saddles, most of the hackle feathers are equal short in length. And same as with the saddle feathers, I would have never paid attention to them if not for her overall unusual appearance.
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That's all for now!
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Thanks you and @Perris for sharing your knowledge. Interesting subject . I changed my vote after reading the article Perris posted.

Another strange thing. About 50% of your photo’s don't show. But in the reply they all do. I wonder if my IPhone is getting morphed.m

I suggest you co-write the article. With all your fans here on BYC, Im sure the article can get the attention it deserves.

 

[Allsfairinloveandbugs]

I will post updated photos after I respond to recent replies, but before I do that, here's a preview!

Given the mosaic version possibility, you would want to take a few samples - maybe one blood sample, and a couple of feather shafts from different parts of the body.
I am now going to read Big Girl’s thread.

I just read your thread on Big Girl. Very interesting.
On the DNA testing the issue of only showing the predominant sex was why I suggested feather shafts from a couple of different areas.
Blood will only show the predominant sex (though both may be present) but I believe a feather shaft will have DNA from far fewer cells and so one feather may be predominantly male whereas another may be predominantly female.
Of course it is probably not worth doing until s/he has fully matured in case it is simply a case of slow development.

After @Perris suggested reaching out to authors who have studied this phenomenon to learn what they say about Sonnet's unusual feather shapes, I decided to read through case studies and see if I could figure out what's going on with her feathers. But currently, all I have is even more questions than ever before and no answers at all. After running into multiple dead ends, I decided maybe a DNA test Would help. But then after learning how PCR tests are performed, I'm not sure. The issue I see is that though all bird Cells have a ZZ or ZW chromosome identity, that doesn't mean that each Feather does. And most of Sonnet's feathers are looking pretty mixed up now, as photos will show. I will send her feathers off in a heartbeat if it will prove anything. But I would at least want the scientist performing the test to know that the bird could be a mosaic gynandromorph. Otherwise, if I understand correctly, any bands showing ZW DNA would identify Sonnet as female. However, I'm not certain that my reasoning is sound, and welcome all input. For those who may be interested to understand how bird DNA/chromosome sex determination works, here is a good article explaining the test.
https://bento.bio/protocol/bird-sexing/

Thanks you and @Perris for sharing your knowledge. Interesting subject . I changed my vote after reading the article Perris posted.

Another strange thing. About 50% of your photo’s don't show. But in the reply they all do. I wonder if my IPhone is getting morphed.

I was going to give you a shout-out for being the only person so far to vote Sonnet anything other than fully female, but then you changed your vote! (I realize others are still undecided and watching with their popcorn to see what transpires.) But if you couldn't view the pictures of other types of gynandromorphs besides bilateral that were illustrated in post #22, that helps explain why you may have changed your vote.

A quick discussion on gynandromorph and intersex birds before i post Sonnet's most recent photos. There was another very in-depth case study performed on an ISA Brown bilateral gynandromorph, different from the three birds in the study that @Perris linked. I had an epiphany after reading the test results of the gonads on all 4 birds. By definition a gynandromorph bird carries both male and female sex chromosomes, causing both male and female characteristics to appear on the same animal. And by definition, an intersex/hermaphrodite bird contains both female and male reproductive tissues in the same animal, in the form of an ovary, testes, or ovotestes.
Here is the case study on the one bilateral gynandromorph here.
https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/159/10/3492/5074254

That bilateral gynandromorph's gonads were mostly testicular, with a normal male testes on the phenotypically male right half, and an ovotestes on the phenotypically female left side. The case study of the 3 bilateral gynandromorphs that Perris linked also showed intersex gonads that were mismatched compared to their phenotypic halves. (This is what led to the theory that birds have cell-autonomous sex identities that are mostly unaffected by sex hormones.) I was going to list the results of those three gynandromorph birds' gonads here too, but the article website is telling me I have reached my limit of 3 free articles per month.

After realizing that by definition all four birds in the two studies were both gynandromorphs and intersex, there is no possible way to determine Sonnet's chromosome and gonads constitution by physical appearance alone. I tried to omit the distinctions and combine into a choice of Both Sexes, but couldn't figure out how to omit the options. But "Both Sexes" has now been added to the poll, with the opportunity to vote twice if desired. And prior votes can always be changed.

A picture on my prior post #24 leads in to the most recent photos i will post today. This one.

After posting that photo, when i zoomed in and looked closer at her back, I realized there were some bare spots showing. I had noticed she had molted some feathers under her roost, but that was no big deal because others are discarding feathers too. But now ive realized the new feathers are growing in with different shapes than the former shapes had. I commented in my prior post that the more pointed feathers were the same length as the oval-shaped feathers, but now realize the reason they were short is because they had just begun to grow in. I feel pretty sure the more male-like saddle feathers began to grow the same time as the sickle-appearing feathers did, but weren't noticeable until they grew longer than her current feathers. Hopefully everyone sees the narrow, pointed feathers growing in, especially on her right side.

And here is what her back/saddle feathers look like as of two days ago. They are Not growing in fully male as I thought might occur, but are in between male and female in appearance. This is why I question if a feather DNA test will determine correct sex, if the feathers contain a mix of male and female chromosomes. The longer tapered feathers are still growing longer. Notice how different the feathers on her right side appear from those on her left. The right side feathers are beginning to sweep to the right like normal male saddle feathers do, while the ones on her left side are still much shorter, though with abnormal tapered ends that aren't fully female. Also, there may now be a third tail feather racing off to catch the other two. I didn't even notice it in person; only saw it in these pictures.

The abnormal shapes of the feathers on her left side are better seen from the side view. The abnormal shapes are also visible in her photos beginning at age 16 weeks, which I included in post #1. I didn't take any pictures of Sonnet between ages seven and fifteen weeks, and so will never know when the abnormal feathers began to appear.

And then there's the one holdout on her right side. The one peeking out from all the longer ones, proclaiming "You hoo; look over here; I'm a girl feather!"

The feathers at the base of Sonnet's tail are also currently different on each side. Like the right-side feathers in her saddle area, the right-side feathers here are considerably fuller and longer, and still growing in.
Right Side.

Left Side

I now want to repost and comment on another photo from a recent prior post, because only now in hindsight do I recognize what was ocurring. In the photo below, there were new feathers growing in on her right side at the base of her tail, much longer than the ones she already had. The new feathers currently growing on the left side of Sonnet's tail look similiar to this photo, though whether they will ultimately mirror the right side or appear different remains to be seen. I still have my popcorn too.

Here are more general photos of Sonnet taken two days ago. She still shows no cockerel behaviors whatsoever, nor indications she is nearing point of lay. She still has a very small pea comb, her extremely slim shanks show no signs of spur growths, and as already shown, her feathers consist of various shapes and sizes, appearing neither fully male nor female. In some ways she still appears to be a pullet. But in addition to her unusual feathers, she is noticeably taller than all the other pullets, and also has a very unusual, masculine-like upright stance and wide shoulders. She also has a noticeably longer neck than all the other pullets. Sonnet is somewhat chameleon-like, as was Big Girl, and her appearance has mystified me for many weeks now. Though some may believe she is fully female, when those two tail feathers suddenly took off and began to grow, all I thought was, "I knew it; here we go!" Because I felt pretty sure she was soon gonna "man up", as far as becoming more masculine in general appearance.

If I hadn't had Big Girl, I would probably still be thinking that Sonnet is just an extra-large pullet with an unusual tail, and might have even given Sonnet Big Girl's name. But since that name was already taken, Sonnet is their name'o. Same song, second verse.

 

[ShrekDawg]

I still say 100% girl

 

[Allsfairinloveandbugs]

I still say 100% girl

Ok! If she lays an egg, I will post a picture asap, right after I vote "fully female" in the poll!.

When i first began to suspect she wasn't fully female at age 15 weeks, I went through her chick pictures to see if I noticed anything unusual. I took some pictures of her clutch when they were 10 days old, and then didnt take any more until she reached age 7 weeks. In going back through those first baby pictures, she looks like just another cute little chick under the eyes of her doting mom. Except that I thought that in one photo, her stance looked odd. If i had noticed it at the time, i would have guessed she would have turned out to be a cockerel, though she feathered in fast like a pullet. But this is all educated guesses and speculation unless there is a way to have her chromosomes tested while she is alive. Though if she lays eggs, or conversely, doesn't lay by this summer, that will be a big clue. Only one other person has seen her in person, at approximately age 12 weeks, and also noticed she looked "different." And she definitely looked different than the pullets she was housed with, though it never crossed my mind then that she might be intersex. What makes you think she is fully female? I am open to and appreciate all thoughts, even when I disagree.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Ok! If she lays an egg, I will post a picture asap, right after I vote "fully female" in the poll!.

When i first began to suspect she wasn't fully female at age 15 weeks, I went through her chick pictures to see if I noticed anything unusual. I took some pictures of her clutch when they were 10 days old, and then didnt take any more until she reached age 7 weeks. In going back through those first baby pictures, she looks like just another cute little chick under the eyes of her doting mom. Except that I thought that in one photo, her stance looked odd. If i had noticed it at the time, i would have guessed she would have turned out to be a cockerel, though she feathered in fast like a pullet. But this is all educated guesses and speculation unless there is a way to have her chromosomes tested while she is alive. Though if she lays eggs, or conversely, doesn't lay by this summer, that will be a big clue. Only one other person has seen her in person, at approximately age 12 weeks, and also noticed she looked "different." And she definitely looked different than the pullets she was housed with, though it never crossed my mind then that she might be intersex. What makes you think she is fully female? I am open to and appreciate all thoughts, even when I disagree.
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Hmm interesting! And I’m not really sure, I just don’t really see any male characteristics about her and I feel like the thin feathers could just be like fraying or a coincidence. Idk. Interesting case for sure.

 

[MommyGirl]

 

[Ifitaintbroke]

It looks like a hawk pretending to be a chicken.

 

[sourland]

pullet

 

[MommyGirl]

pullet

I agree

 

[Allsfairinloveandbugs]

Hmm interesting! And I’m not really sure, I just don’t really see any male characteristics about her and I feel like the thin feathers could just be like fraying or a coincidence. Idk. Interesting case for sure.

The thin/frayed feathers look that way because they are new feathers growing in. I've never seen a female chicken have such strange-looking feathers, but can't currently prove anything one way or another, and see that so far, thoughts are still unanimous for pullet. I will keep taking pictures, but won't try to convince anyone for a while. Unless she begins to lay, and then I will be convinced, and will confirm the pullet voters were correct!