Holdthechicken
Songster
- Mar 11, 2023
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My EE stood very upright, more so than I thought was "normal" for a pullet, but she definitely was. Reminds me a lot of yours posture. I vote pullet with the others.
I have ANOTHER androgenous chicken😅
- Thread starter Allsfairinloveandbugs
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
Hi @Perris
I have been disappointed every time i google "gynandromorph" and the National Geographic article (with picture you linked) usually pops up first, because it is very misleading. The brief info stated in the article is true, but doesn't tell "the rest of the story."
There are several other types of gynandromorphs in addition to bilateral gynandromorphs.
Here is an excerpt from an article by author Jacqueline Jacob, Kentucky poultry extension
There are four main types of gynandromorphs: 1) bilateral, which is a left/right split of the female/male cells, 2) polar, which is a front/back split of the body’s female/male cells, 3) oblique, which is an X-shaped division of the female/male cells in the body, and 4) mosaic, which is a random spotty mixture of female/male cells throughout the body.
Bilateral, Polar and Oblique
The illustration above doesn't show an example of a mosaic gynandromorph pattern because the possibilities are endless, but here are some examples of gynandromorph butterflies, including mosaics, copied from an article by the NY times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/science/split-sex-gynandromorph.html
On the top row; the first butterfly is a normal male, and the second is a normal female. The third butterfly on the top row is a bilateral gynandromorph, as is the first butterfly on the second row. All five of the remaining butterflies are mosaic gynandromorphs.
The third butterfly in the second row has a relatively small part of its bottom left wing with female coloring, yet it is still a 1 in 10,000 gynandromorph. And that is a second major way the National Geographic article is misleading. Because a bilateral gynandromorph is EXTREMELY rare, nowhere near as common as 1 in 10,000. I read an article where a person estimated one in a million, but then said that was probably too low. If bilateral gynandromorphs were as common as 1 in 10,000, then as plentiful as chickens are throughout the world, there would be plenty of pictures on the internet and probably even on BYC. Mosaic gynandromorphs are by far the most common type comprising the 1 in 10,00 number.
I've seen a few possible/probable polar gynandromorphs on past BYC gender threads, but none were identified as such. Two examples I recall were chickens with fully mature male tail feathers including sickle feathers, yet very small undeveloped combs. Both were less than one year old so too young to know for sure, but we all know a normal cockerel doesn't develop that way. The OPs who posted the threads and pictures didn't remain active on BYC and so there was no followup. On a third thread, I saw an example of a probable polar gynandromorph with a male front half and female rear half. It had a huge comb and wattles, yet clearly female saddle and tail feathers. That chicken was around 2 years old if I remember correctly, and the OP called the chicken a hermaphrodite, describing its behaviors and how it was a misfit within their flock.
I suspect more BYC members than we know may have had mosaic gynandromorphs sometime in their past but didn't know it. In 2017 I had a chick hatch with a blue left shank and a yellow right one. His dad was an Easter Egger and his mom was a Welsummer. That was a proven sexlinked cross, with pullets having blue shanks and cockerels having yellow. I knew the fact that his legs were two different colors was very rare, but had never heard the term "gynandromorph" back then. I didn't keep him because he was smooth-faced, and I only wanted to keep EEs with muffs and beards. So I traded him and 9 POL pullets for a proven adult chicken guardian dog. I didn't regret the trade, but now wish I would have known to look for other possible male/female characteristics besides the differing shank colors. I only took one photo before I traded him when he was 4 months old.
@Perris , I think I read the original case study that the exerpt you linked referred to. Among many interesting discoveries, they found that the gonads of the bilateral gynandromorphs were mostly testicular on both sides, not an ovary on one side and testicle on the other as they had expected to find. That's one of the reasons why they concluded that it was the sexual identities of the individual cells that caused the birds to be bilateral gynandromorphs and not their gonads. But opportunities to study bilateral gynandromorphs are rare because the birds themselves are so rare, and there are still many unknowns.
I have been disappointed every time i google "gynandromorph" and the National Geographic article (with picture you linked) usually pops up first, because it is very misleading. The brief info stated in the article is true, but doesn't tell "the rest of the story."
There are several other types of gynandromorphs in addition to bilateral gynandromorphs.
Here is an excerpt from an article by author Jacqueline Jacob, Kentucky poultry extension
There are four main types of gynandromorphs: 1) bilateral, which is a left/right split of the female/male cells, 2) polar, which is a front/back split of the body’s female/male cells, 3) oblique, which is an X-shaped division of the female/male cells in the body, and 4) mosaic, which is a random spotty mixture of female/male cells throughout the body.
Bilateral, Polar and Oblique
The illustration above doesn't show an example of a mosaic gynandromorph pattern because the possibilities are endless, but here are some examples of gynandromorph butterflies, including mosaics, copied from an article by the NY times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/science/split-sex-gynandromorph.html
On the top row; the first butterfly is a normal male, and the second is a normal female. The third butterfly on the top row is a bilateral gynandromorph, as is the first butterfly on the second row. All five of the remaining butterflies are mosaic gynandromorphs.
The third butterfly in the second row has a relatively small part of its bottom left wing with female coloring, yet it is still a 1 in 10,000 gynandromorph. And that is a second major way the National Geographic article is misleading. Because a bilateral gynandromorph is EXTREMELY rare, nowhere near as common as 1 in 10,000. I read an article where a person estimated one in a million, but then said that was probably too low. If bilateral gynandromorphs were as common as 1 in 10,000, then as plentiful as chickens are throughout the world, there would be plenty of pictures on the internet and probably even on BYC. Mosaic gynandromorphs are by far the most common type comprising the 1 in 10,00 number.
I've seen a few possible/probable polar gynandromorphs on past BYC gender threads, but none were identified as such. Two examples I recall were chickens with fully mature male tail feathers including sickle feathers, yet very small undeveloped combs. Both were less than one year old so too young to know for sure, but we all know a normal cockerel doesn't develop that way. The OPs who posted the threads and pictures didn't remain active on BYC and so there was no followup. On a third thread, I saw an example of a probable polar gynandromorph with a male front half and female rear half. It had a huge comb and wattles, yet clearly female saddle and tail feathers. That chicken was around 2 years old if I remember correctly, and the OP called the chicken a hermaphrodite, describing its behaviors and how it was a misfit within their flock.
I suspect more BYC members than we know may have had mosaic gynandromorphs sometime in their past but didn't know it. In 2017 I had a chick hatch with a blue left shank and a yellow right one. His dad was an Easter Egger and his mom was a Welsummer. That was a proven sexlinked cross, with pullets having blue shanks and cockerels having yellow. I knew the fact that his legs were two different colors was very rare, but had never heard the term "gynandromorph" back then. I didn't keep him because he was smooth-faced, and I only wanted to keep EEs with muffs and beards. So I traded him and 9 POL pullets for a proven adult chicken guardian dog. I didn't regret the trade, but now wish I would have known to look for other possible male/female characteristics besides the differing shank colors. I only took one photo before I traded him when he was 4 months old.
@Perris , I think I read the original case study that the exerpt you linked referred to. Among many interesting discoveries, they found that the gonads of the bilateral gynandromorphs were mostly testicular on both sides, not an ovary on one side and testicle on the other as they had expected to find. That's one of the reasons why they concluded that it was the sexual identities of the individual cells that caused the birds to be bilateral gynandromorphs and not their gonads. But opportunities to study bilateral gynandromorphs are rare because the birds themselves are so rare, and there are still many unknowns.
thanks for that wonderfully informative post @Allsfairinloveandbugs 
Will you consider writing an article about it, bringing all your research and thoughts on this together in one place that'll be easy for people to find? And you might thereby tempt other BYC members with 'odd' birds to contribute their photos and experiences in the comments and reviews, so the data set grows too.
Will you consider writing an article about it, bringing all your research and thoughts on this together in one place that'll be easy for people to find? And you might thereby tempt other BYC members with 'odd' birds to contribute their photos and experiences in the comments and reviews, so the data set grows too.
- Thread starter
- #24
Thank you for your encouragement; I really appreciate it. I had planned to write an article on this topic for the last article writing contest, but the rules include "no pictures from the internet, and no using photos taken by BYC members without their permission." I PM'd several inactive members in hopes of hearing back and being able to use their photos, but never did. I was hesitant to pour a lot of time, energy, heart and soul into writing an article only to have it disappear into the great vast BYC article wasteland as soon as I hit the "publish" button. (Because at least there is some hope of exposure through the contest.) But I love your idea for others to post photos and comments of their own unusual birds in the comments section of the article. I still have the article in draft; its working title is Extraordinary Birds! Chimeras, Gyandromorphs, Intersex/Hermaphrodites, Sex Reversals. I will tackle the article again, after I first reread to refresh my in memory the 200+ articles I read on the above conditions over a year ago!thanks for that wonderfully informative post @Allsfairinloveandbugs
Will you consider writing an article about it, bringing all your research and thoughts on this together in one place that'll be easy for people to find? And you might thereby tempt other BYC members with 'odd' birds to contribute their photos and experiences in the comments and reviews, so the data set grows too.
This was my intention in creating this thread in the first place, to see what happens in real time instead of waiting years from now like I did with Big Girl. The poll will remain open forevermore, and anyone who wants to change their vote in the future is welcome to do so. There's no absolute right or wrong here, only our best educated guesses. For those who still believe Sonnet is fully female after viewing the latest photos below, stick to your guns; maybe she'll lay an egg soon. But I just can't convince myself of that.This looks like it's going to be a fun ride.
Pop the corn people!
All photos below taken January 7, 2024.
I'm not feeling anal I mean scientific enough to start measuring her sickle/nonsickle feathers, but feel pretty sure they are continuing to grow longer.
Sonnet's clutch of 4 pullets (including her) was the last of 22 EE pullets hatched this year. (There are 5 straight-comb pullets three weeks younger than her.) Eyeballing Sonnet's body mass and height compared to all the other 2023 EE pullets, I estimate she is 50-60% heavier and taller than the other pullets. Not feeling scientific enough to weigh any of them yet either, especially since they are still maturing
I had an overall sense that her saddle feathers looked unusual, but the variations show up better when photographed from directly above or behind. There are some very narrow and pointed feathers, but the wider feathers tend to hide them, since most all feathers are similiar in length. There are also some perfectly round feathers. To my eye, the rest look curiously elongated, with neither fully round nor pointed tips. If it's true that every cell in a bird has a sexual identity, it looks to me like many of Sonnet's saddle feathers are battling for supremacy. I am sure I would have never noticed the unusual saddle feathers if not for the more obvious ways Sonnet looks different from all the others.
I'm currently unsure what to think about her hackle feathers, since some of my hens have fairly pointed hackle feathers too. Some of Sonnet's appear very narrow and pointed, but some round ones are also present. Same as with her saddles, most of the hackle feathers are equal short in length. And same as with the saddle feathers, I would have never paid attention to them if not for her overall unusual appearance.
That's all for now!
That's great news; I know exactly what you mean about the article wasteland and how the competitions change that landscape, and I'm glad you are going to revive the draft. Have you considered getting in touch with any of the academics who've written on it? I bet they'd be interested to have another example of this very rare phenomenon to study, and maybe do some (non-lethal!) tests on Sonnet which could clarify what's going on there. Published papers always include contact details of the authors, and even if they are out of date, you can sometimes find the author by googling their name and .ac.uk or .edu domain (depends on e.g. how unusual their name is).
Come spring, Sonnet just might produce an egg and end all of this sweaty speculation. However, those feathers speak of the possibility of something more complex that could produce something more surprising than a mere egg.
Do Big Girl and Sonnet share any genes? Are they related in any way?
- Thread starter
- #28
It never crossed my mind to get in touch with the authors who have studied past cases. I would expect that many might think "who cares?" about the subject, but you are right; that attitude might not apply to those who have already shown a past interest in similiar issues. However, since I should know fairly soon if Sonnet will lay eggs, I will wait a few more months and see what transpires.
That is a very good question, both because Big Girl and Sonnet appear to be similiar colors, and also because there was a case study published in the early 1990s about 3 true hermaphrodites in a flock of bantam cochins, and the scientists speculated the condition might be inherited. But I haven't found even one other similiar case study since. But no, Big Girl and Sonnet are completely unrelated. Big Girl was one of 12 straight run Lavender Orpingtons purchased at Tractor Supply in 2018, and Sonnet is a home-hatched splash blue Easter Egger. I never used any of the lav Orp males for breeding, and never hatched any of the hen's eggs. So no chance.
I see the votes for fully female have increased! I want to make one quick mention about Sonnet's tail feathers, then add some info about and pictures of Big Girl.
First of all, while Sonnet was lying down sunbathing earlier today, I glanced over at her, and quickly admit I saw nothing other than a fully female pullet with a couple of longer/wonky tail feathers. And I do understand female chickens can have unusual tail feathers, same as they can crow and grow spurs. The reason I mention understanding the tail feathers issue is because among a couple hundred home-hatched Easter Eggers through the years, one is a rumpless hen. Though she adds visual interest to my flock, I've otherwise always viewed it as no big deal.
By the time I made Big Girl's thread, she was nearly 4 years old, and based on her lifetime of behaviors in addition to her unusual appearance, I felt sure she was duel-sexed. And yet, in Big Girl's gender poll, 10 members voted intersex while 8 voted fully male. I knew Big Girl couldnt be fully male, same as i know Sonnet can't be.
I realized some members saw Big Girl's large comb, wattles, spurs and much larger size than the hens, and concluded "No way can that be anything but a rooster." I think those comments "scarred" me a bit, and I feared people might vote Sonnet to be a late-maturing cockerel due to her considerably larger size and unique tail feathers. (Obviously by the comments and votes so far, my fears were unjustified!!
) Big Girl age 4
However, though she never laid, Big Girl's comb color and size changed during the warmer and cooler seasons same as any other hen.
Big Girl's saddle feathers appeared female when she was Sonnet's current age, and her behaviors were fully that of a pullet too, though was much larger than the other pullets. That's why I named her Big Girl. I didn't think I had taken even one photo of Big Girl when she was Sonnet's age, but just recently discovered one on my old phone. In the photo below, that is her on the far left, standing behind the white leghorn pullet. Her pink comb and waddle are visible, as are her pullet saddle feathers. One can also make out her unusual tail feathers, even though part of her tail is hidden behind the cockerel standing in front. Compared to the cockerels, it never entered my mind that Big Girl was anything other than a extra large pullet with an unusual tail. I wish I knew when Big Girl's spurs began to grow, but I have no clue.
I didn't gain full suspicion Big Girl was duel gendered until she was 2 years old. By then she looked quite masculine, but ultimately it was her flock behaviors and interactions that helped confirm my suspicion. I don't yet have any history of Sonnet's behaviors to make a judgement call. Currently she is simply an innocent young chicken that the cockerels have indicated by their lack of interest is not yet nearing POL. And neither do they yet act as if she is a threat to their masculinity. Even if photos don't adequately capture it, Sonnet's appearance is unique, and was weeks before the longer tail feathers began to grow. But if she lays eggs, it will prove she merely an extra-large sized pullet with some peculiar feathers that nevertheless has a fully-functional left ovary. And I want to emphasize; I fully hope those of you who think she is fully female are correct. Because, to use a modern-day term we all know, chickens aren't "woke", and life for any chicken that appears different than the norm often results in bullying and ostracism. Big Girl was fully accepted by hens, but roosters were a potential threat, though Big Girl learned how to subdue the threat with a very interesting and intelligent behavior. I've read descriptions where bilateral gynadromorphs and other likely duel-sexed chickens had difficulties finding acceptance with their flock members too. I don't wish that hardship on any chicken.
What an interesting thread thank you for starting it and the explanation of the different types as well as the article @Perris posted are fascinating.It never crossed my mind to get in touch with the authors who have studied past cases. I would expect that many might think "who cares?" about the subject, but you are right; that attitude might not apply to those who have already shown a past interest in similiar issues. However, since I should know fairly soon if Sonnet will lay eggs, I will wait a few more months and see what transpires.
That is a very good question, both because Big Girl and Sonnet appear to be similiar colors, and also because there was a case study published in the early 1990s about 3 true hermaphrodites in a flock of bantam cochins, and the scientists speculated the condition might be inherited. But I haven't found even one other similiar case study since. But no, Big Girl and Sonnet are completely unrelated. Big Girl was one of 12 straight run Lavender Orpingtons purchased at Tractor Supply in 2018, and Sonnet is a home-hatched splash blue Easter Egger. I never used any of the lav Orp males for breeding, and never hatched any of the hen's eggs. So no chance.
I see the votes for fully female have increased! I want to make one quick mention about Sonnet's tail feathers, then add some info about and pictures of Big Girl.
First of all, while Sonnet was lying down sunbathing earlier today, I glanced over at her, and quickly admit I saw nothing other than a fully female pullet with a couple of longer/wonky tail feathers. And I do understand female chickens can have unusual tail feathers, same as they can crow and grow spurs. The reason I mention understanding the tail feathers issue is because among a couple hundred home-hatched Easter Eggers through the years, one is a rumpless hen. Though she adds visual interest to my flock, I've otherwise always viewed it as no big deal.
View attachment 3722758
By the time I made Big Girl's thread, she was nearly 4 years old, and based on her lifetime of behaviors in addition to her unusual appearance, I felt sure she was duel-sexed. And yet, in Big Girl's gender poll, 10 members voted intersex while 8 voted fully male. I knew Big Girl couldnt be fully male, same as i know Sonnet can't be.
I realized some members saw Big Girl's large comb, wattles, spurs and much larger size than the hens, and concluded "No way can that be anything but a rooster." I think those comments "scarred" me a bit, and I feared people might vote Sonnet to be a late-maturing cockerel due to her considerably larger size and unique tail feathers. (Obviously by the comments and votes so far, my fears were unjustified!!
Big Girl age 4
View attachment 3722856
However, though she never laid, Big Girl's comb color and size changed during the warmer and cooler seasons same as any other hen.
View attachment 3722789
Big Girl's saddle feathers appeared female when she was Sonnet's current age, and her behaviors were fully that of a pullet too, though was much larger than the other pullets. That's why I named her Big Girl. I didn't think I had taken even one photo of Big Girl when she was Sonnet's age, but just recently discovered one on my old phone. In the photo below, that is her on the far left, standing behind the white leghorn pullet. Her pink comb and waddle are visible, as are her pullet saddle feathers. One can also make out her unusual tail feathers, even though part of her tail is hidden behind the cockerel standing in front. Compared to the cockerels, it never entered my mind that Big Girl was anything other than a extra large pullet with an unusual tail. I wish I knew when Big Girl's spurs began to grow, but I have no clue.
View attachment 3722832
I didn't gain full suspicion Big Girl was duel gendered until she was 2 years old. By then she looked quite masculine, but ultimately it was her flock behaviors and interactions that helped confirm my suspicion. I don't yet have any history of Sonnet's behaviors to make a judgement call. Currently she is simply an innocent young chicken that the cockerels have indicated by their lack of interest is not yet nearing POL. And neither do they yet act as if she is a threat to their masculinity. Even if photos don't adequately capture it, Sonnet's appearance is unique, and was weeks before the longer tail feathers began to grow. But if she lays eggs, it will prove she merely an extra-large sized pullet with some peculiar feathers that nevertheless has a fully-functional left ovary. And I want to emphasize; I fully hope those of you who think she is fully female are correct. Because, to use a modern-day term we all know, chickens aren't "woke", and life for any chicken that appears different than the norm often results in bullying and ostracism. Big Girl was fully accepted by hens, but roosters were a potential threat, though Big Girl learned how to subdue the threat with a very interesting and intelligent behavior. I've read descriptions where bilateral gynadromorphs and other likely duel-sexed chickens had difficulties finding acceptance with their flock members too. I don't wish that hardship on any chicken.
I think you should reach out to the authors of the articles and publish something here.
Anything you write will be much improved if you had some DNA samples tested from Sonnet. There are labs who will do that for you and it isn’t massively expensive.
Given the mosaic version possibility, you would want to take a few samples - maybe one blood sample, and a couple of feather shafts from different parts of the body.
I am now going to read Big Girl’s thread.
I just read your thread on Big Girl. Very interesting.
On the DNA testing the issue of only showing the predominant sex was why I suggested feather shafts from a couple of different areas.
Blood will only show the predominant sex (though both may be present) but I believe a feather shaft will have DNA from far fewer cells and so one feather may be predominantly male whereas another may be predominantly female.
Of course it is probably not worth doing until s/he has fully matured in case it is simply a case of slow development.
On the DNA testing the issue of only showing the predominant sex was why I suggested feather shafts from a couple of different areas.
Blood will only show the predominant sex (though both may be present) but I believe a feather shaft will have DNA from far fewer cells and so one feather may be predominantly male whereas another may be predominantly female.
Of course it is probably not worth doing until s/he has fully matured in case it is simply a case of slow development.
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