raingarden
Crowing
Try a solar powered floating paddlewheel aerator. A paddlewheel will move a lot more water per watt than a pump can. It's an orders of magnitude difference.
I may be growing my own food for the chickens after all, due to genetic editing
- Thread starter saysfaa
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #102
I spent several (more) hours looking into toxicity levels of fish. Among the things I found is that mercury in fish is a worldwide issue. I thought it was a Great Lakes issue from the warnings I heard growing up in the Great Lakes region. It turns out, people who often eat fish such as tuna might also look into mercury levels.
Mercury was a much bigger problem in the Great Lakes than in the ocean. It and the other toxins that were the scariest problems for several decades in the mid to late 1990's - PCBs, DDTs, and their derivatives, - have all decreased very significantly in the region.
I'm still concerned for this project because the plan was to feed fish regularly. Also, because feeding the fish to the chickens adds one more level to the food chain before I eat it. That is just that much more concentration of the toxins.
It might still be safe enough. There is quite a lot of information on how to minimize the risks (discard the fattiest parts of the fish, eat fish lower in the food chain, where to fish.)
Fishing inland waters can be safer. Or not.
I left fish to look again at other sources of nutrients. I would like to lower the dependance on fish but, at this point, am not trying to eliminate all use of fish.
This research is interesting.
Short version is too much nitrogen fertilizer results in a "...significant decrease (P<0.05) of methionine, valine and lysine contents..."
This research was on chicory. The paper referenced similar results in other vegetables, including kale and spinach.
Mercury was a much bigger problem in the Great Lakes than in the ocean. It and the other toxins that were the scariest problems for several decades in the mid to late 1990's - PCBs, DDTs, and their derivatives, - have all decreased very significantly in the region.
I'm still concerned for this project because the plan was to feed fish regularly. Also, because feeding the fish to the chickens adds one more level to the food chain before I eat it. That is just that much more concentration of the toxins.
It might still be safe enough. There is quite a lot of information on how to minimize the risks (discard the fattiest parts of the fish, eat fish lower in the food chain, where to fish.)
Fishing inland waters can be safer. Or not.
I left fish to look again at other sources of nutrients. I would like to lower the dependance on fish but, at this point, am not trying to eliminate all use of fish.
This research is interesting.
Short version is too much nitrogen fertilizer results in a "...significant decrease (P<0.05) of methionine, valine and lysine contents..."
This research was on chicory. The paper referenced similar results in other vegetables, including kale and spinach.
- Thread starter
- #103
"...Energy-to-protein ratios are important to feed rations... If the diet is well-balanced, the bird eats primarily to satisfy its energy requirements. However, if the diet is deficient in protein in relation to its energy content, the bird will overeat energy in an effort to obtain suffi- cient protein...
A high-energy diet effectively limits feed intake, which also limits protein and amino acid intake. Therefore, a high dietary concentration of amino acids is needed for high-energy diets. The NRC nutrient requirements are based on high-energy, high-protein (high amino acid level) diets.
In contrast, as energy decreases, feed intake increases, requiring a lower concentration of nutrients in the diet. If low concentrations of amino acids are used, diets should be low-energy so that feed intake will be increased....
Birds eat less when it is hot and more when it is cold (NRC, 1994). Therefore, diets usually need to be higher in amino acids during hot weather in order to make sure birds get enough.
Feeding diets deficient in essential amino acids can also increase feed intake.
..
Small birds such as leghorns are able to keep intake constant even with varying levels of dietary energy concentration, but heavy genotypes cannot (their feed intake is more constant).
Nutrient balance has an important impact on the carcass. In general, diets high in energy produce fat carcasses, and diets high in protein lead to lean carcasses. But again, the protein-to-energy balance is important. If a bird consumes excess energy compared to protein, a fatter bird develops...
The digestibility of various feedstuffs is important when developing a feed ration. Amino acids are more digestible in some ingredients than others. Methionine in most ingredients, such as in corn and soybean meal, is highly digestible (91%), but in flaxmeal, MET digestibility is only 82%, and in sesame meal only 42%.
...
Algae is high in MET (1.33%). Chlorella has potential as a feed supplement; however, production in ponds, harvesting, and drying are challenging.
The above from This source.
https://attra.ncat.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/methionine.pdf
Maybe I can use my pond to provide the Met after all, making use of my algae overproduction problem.
The part about lowering energy when paired with lower protein is especially encouraging too.
A high-energy diet effectively limits feed intake, which also limits protein and amino acid intake. Therefore, a high dietary concentration of amino acids is needed for high-energy diets. The NRC nutrient requirements are based on high-energy, high-protein (high amino acid level) diets.
In contrast, as energy decreases, feed intake increases, requiring a lower concentration of nutrients in the diet. If low concentrations of amino acids are used, diets should be low-energy so that feed intake will be increased....
Birds eat less when it is hot and more when it is cold (NRC, 1994). Therefore, diets usually need to be higher in amino acids during hot weather in order to make sure birds get enough.
Feeding diets deficient in essential amino acids can also increase feed intake.
..
Small birds such as leghorns are able to keep intake constant even with varying levels of dietary energy concentration, but heavy genotypes cannot (their feed intake is more constant).
Nutrient balance has an important impact on the carcass. In general, diets high in energy produce fat carcasses, and diets high in protein lead to lean carcasses. But again, the protein-to-energy balance is important. If a bird consumes excess energy compared to protein, a fatter bird develops...
The digestibility of various feedstuffs is important when developing a feed ration. Amino acids are more digestible in some ingredients than others. Methionine in most ingredients, such as in corn and soybean meal, is highly digestible (91%), but in flaxmeal, MET digestibility is only 82%, and in sesame meal only 42%.
...
Algae is high in MET (1.33%). Chlorella has potential as a feed supplement; however, production in ponds, harvesting, and drying are challenging.
The above from This source.
https://attra.ncat.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/methionine.pdf
Maybe I can use my pond to provide the Met after all, making use of my algae overproduction problem.
The part about lowering energy when paired with lower protein is especially encouraging too.
- Thread starter
- #104
Thankfully, my pond doesn't have cyanobacteria algae. That is toxic. So is golden, I don't know if I have that. Oh, it's very highly unlikely.
I have chara algae. That is nutritious for birds. Also a lot of spirogyra that gets quite a lot research as a food source.
Filamentous isn't nutritious and not entirely harmless. I have it but I think I can avoid it when harvesting the other kinds.
Oh. I'm not sure if I have chara or nitella...
"Nitella is closely related to chara, but generally is found in deeper waters. Nitella is easily distinguished from chara by lacking the garlic or musty odor associated with chara." VA DNR.
More comprehensive info on the differences at https://fieldguide.mt.gov/speciesDetail.aspx?elcode=NACHLMT001
Which says it is a food source for water birds.
I have chara algae. That is nutritious for birds. Also a lot of spirogyra that gets quite a lot research as a food source.
Filamentous isn't nutritious and not entirely harmless. I have it but I think I can avoid it when harvesting the other kinds.
Oh. I'm not sure if I have chara or nitella...
"Nitella is closely related to chara, but generally is found in deeper waters. Nitella is easily distinguished from chara by lacking the garlic or musty odor associated with chara." VA DNR.
More comprehensive info on the differences at https://fieldguide.mt.gov/speciesDetail.aspx?elcode=NACHLMT001
Which says it is a food source for water birds.
- Thread starter
- #105
Feedipedia doesn't list nutrients of algae.
It has a link to this source of the pictures. The same source said a French study indicated limiting this feed to not more than 10 percent; a different study found no problems with 30%.
Available energy is 2.39 kcal/g
or 95% fudicial interval 2.84 - 3.74.
It has a link to this source of the pictures. The same source said a French study indicated limiting this feed to not more than 10 percent; a different study found no problems with 30%.
Available energy is 2.39 kcal/g
or 95% fudicial interval 2.84 - 3.74.
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- Thread starter
- #106
A bit more evidence for feeding algae
From this British study
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669408417702
"1. The effect of sun‐dried Spirulina platensisin poultry diets was studied in a 12‐week feeding trial by replacing either fishmeal (FM) or groundnut cake (GC) in a commercial diet with algae at isonitrogenous concentrations of 140 g/kg and 170 g/kg respectively. Additional vitamins/ minerals were omitted from the algal diets because Spirulina is rich in them.
2. Efficiency of food utilisation, protein efficiency ratio and dressing percentage indicated that substitution of FM or GC by alga did not affect the performance of broilers.
3. None of the diets affected the weights, compositions and histopathology of the various organs of the chicks.
4. Meat quality remained unchanged except for a more intense colour in the case of birds fed on the alga‐containing diets."
From this British study
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071669408417702
"1. The effect of sun‐dried Spirulina platensisin poultry diets was studied in a 12‐week feeding trial by replacing either fishmeal (FM) or groundnut cake (GC) in a commercial diet with algae at isonitrogenous concentrations of 140 g/kg and 170 g/kg respectively. Additional vitamins/ minerals were omitted from the algal diets because Spirulina is rich in them.
2. Efficiency of food utilisation, protein efficiency ratio and dressing percentage indicated that substitution of FM or GC by alga did not affect the performance of broilers.
3. None of the diets affected the weights, compositions and histopathology of the various organs of the chicks.
4. Meat quality remained unchanged except for a more intense colour in the case of birds fed on the alga‐containing diets."
- Thread starter
- #107
In looking for how it is harvested, I found that I have made too many assumptions about the different kinds of algae. For example, spirolina is a type of cyanobacteria and not a type of spirogyrus. Not all the cyanobacteria are toxic.
I might sort it out. Or not. I'm confindent I don't have the toxic kinds, the rest (such as one kind having twice the amount of a nutrient as another kind) just don't matter in this context. Although it is interesting that they sent it into space to feed astronauts because of the nutritional density and profile.
Harvesting it seems to be difficult if one is trying to get a pure result. I don't think it will be otherwise. Filtering or sedimentation tanks (buckets) or a combination should work to separate it from both water and other things as much as I need.
I might sort it out. Or not. I'm confindent I don't have the toxic kinds, the rest (such as one kind having twice the amount of a nutrient as another kind) just don't matter in this context. Although it is interesting that they sent it into space to feed astronauts because of the nutritional density and profile.
Harvesting it seems to be difficult if one is trying to get a pure result. I don't think it will be otherwise. Filtering or sedimentation tanks (buckets) or a combination should work to separate it from both water and other things as much as I need.
- Thread starter
- #108
My friend's doctor has her eating two and only two Brazil nuts each day. She couldn't remember why.
One Brazil nut per day is a thing (for people) that can be easily looked up. It is for the selenium. Many people are deficient. Brazil nuts have the highest levels of any commonly available food; one conveniently has about the recommended amount. Some sites go into why Se is so important.
Some talk about how much better used a food source of a nutrient is than an isolated supplement. I'm convinced of that from many other foods/nutrients.
So, trace mineral salt as a source of selenium is now only one of two solutions for this project. Brazil nuts are expensive for chicken feed but four hens don't need many. The nuts are also tropical, so I can't grow them. I doubt they have much risk of genetic modification, though, and the trace mineral salt is made far away, too.
Edit to add... I intend to start eating a Brazil nut per day, too.
Edit to fix grammar
One Brazil nut per day is a thing (for people) that can be easily looked up. It is for the selenium. Many people are deficient. Brazil nuts have the highest levels of any commonly available food; one conveniently has about the recommended amount. Some sites go into why Se is so important.
Some talk about how much better used a food source of a nutrient is than an isolated supplement. I'm convinced of that from many other foods/nutrients.
So, trace mineral salt as a source of selenium is now only one of two solutions for this project. Brazil nuts are expensive for chicken feed but four hens don't need many. The nuts are also tropical, so I can't grow them. I doubt they have much risk of genetic modification, though, and the trace mineral salt is made far away, too.
Edit to add... I intend to start eating a Brazil nut per day, too.
Edit to fix grammar
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #109
My pond also has duckweed. There is a thread on that from last year. That is likely easier to harvest.
Anyway, This source has a good overview and some very specific helpful information. Bolding is mine.
In several studies, an "...average CP content for duckweed is 34.9%, and the range is 20.8 to 45%. The variation in the CP content of the duckweed has been attributed to the different species and management. Roots less than 10 mm in length indicate higher protein content than roots more than 10 mm in length since root length is an indicator of pond conditions......
Some studies found improved growth rates of broiler chicks when sesame oil cake was replaced by duckweed up to about 6%.
The improved performance ... might be ascribed to the relatively high levels of essential amino acids, especially lysine, methionine and threonine compared to other plant proteins. ..."
From the same source: Another study found optimal level for village chickens was 20% of the diet. And other studies found village chickens ate 36-49 g per day of duckweed when given a choice of duckweed or soy meal.
The differences seem most likely to be from differences of species of duckweed and/or growing conditions. One of the researcher thought there may also be a difference in the ability of some breeds of chickens to utilize more protein - his study found a big difference in how much some breeds ate vs other breeds.
Anyway, This source has a good overview and some very specific helpful information. Bolding is mine.
In several studies, an "...average CP content for duckweed is 34.9%, and the range is 20.8 to 45%. The variation in the CP content of the duckweed has been attributed to the different species and management. Roots less than 10 mm in length indicate higher protein content than roots more than 10 mm in length since root length is an indicator of pond conditions......
Some studies found improved growth rates of broiler chicks when sesame oil cake was replaced by duckweed up to about 6%.
The improved performance ... might be ascribed to the relatively high levels of essential amino acids, especially lysine, methionine and threonine compared to other plant proteins. ..."
From the same source: Another study found optimal level for village chickens was 20% of the diet. And other studies found village chickens ate 36-49 g per day of duckweed when given a choice of duckweed or soy meal.
The differences seem most likely to be from differences of species of duckweed and/or growing conditions. One of the researcher thought there may also be a difference in the ability of some breeds of chickens to utilize more protein - his study found a big difference in how much some breeds ate vs other breeds.
I know a bit about ponds, both stocked farm ponds and ornamental ponds, for my native environment in subtropical Florida. I have access to many exotic plants that wouldn’t overwinter where you are. Hydrilla is at the top of the list for a nutritious water weed that grows fast and can be thrown to chickens in its raw state right out of the pond. I doubt it will overwinter in your climate though. Although it might if your spring-fed pond retains a constant temperature year-round as springs in Florida do. You’ll need to check your state regs on its legality. Its prohibited in much of the country but easy to harvest in the wild where its already established.
In your habitat, do you have small, stagnant, ponds in your woods that produce fish? In Florida such sort of temporary pond or stream is common and there are many species that thrive without aeration. If you have similar species where you are, look into stocking those. See if you have warmouth:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmouth
In your habitat, do you have small, stagnant, ponds in your woods that produce fish? In Florida such sort of temporary pond or stream is common and there are many species that thrive without aeration. If you have similar species where you are, look into stocking those. See if you have warmouth:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmouth
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