I wish I knew.. DO YOU KNOW?

[microchick]

I can honestly say that my keel bone ratings are all over the board, especially with my Buff Orpingtons and Welsummers. The roosters are in the 0-1 rating and I have hens that are in the 1 rating. The hens that are showing resistance are in the 2 rating generally. Maybe 3 that have a solid 3 rating. Those birds that are in the 0 to 1 rating are the ones that I watch carefully as they will be the next ones to either die or be culled. At least that is the way it has been running with my birds. All birds that I have lost have a 0 or lower keel bone rating. No adipose tissue, muscle or fat on them. Just walking skeletons. I also have multiple feeders in pens and runs so no chicken is bullied away from the food. In spite of healthy appetites, ample food and healthy treats the ones with a 0 to 1 keel bone ranking do not gain weight.

The breeder that I bought my birds from recommended Game bird finisher after 8 weeks of age and before then Game Bird Starter. You have to understand, where we live, finding pelleted all flock feed is very hard to do. I could switch them back to a game bird starter but that will raise the protein in their diets and yes, I noticed them really porking on the weight when I fed that to them over the summer while integrating younger fledglings into the flock. Also no scratch or boss goes into the main feeders. They have a treat feeder that gets their ration of boss and scratch put into it every morning along with a ration of their regular feed. When that is gone, that's it for the day, and yes,they do eat the regular feed and eat from their feeders after that.

So you can see my dilemma. It's impossible to split up a flock of 58 birds so that I can feed extra protein to group A and B so they gain weight (which they won't) give all flock to group C so they maintain and a low protein feed to group D so they loose weight. Just not possible to do and caring for them would be way more complicated than I want it to be nor do I have the desire or space for that many pens.

As for not wanting to open my birds. Like I said, they are pets each and every one of them. It's a personal choice not to open them when they die. It's as same as the choice I have made not to eat any of my birds. With a solid diagnosis of Marek's in my flock, as long as a bird does not present with symptoms of parasite over load, injury, or infection such as swollen sinuses or nasal discharge, I assume that death is caused by Marek's related tumors, fungal infection due to compromised immune system) or paralysis (which I have also observed in two of my birds that I have lost)

Frankly, in the chicken world, there is nothing more painful than watching a bird that you have raised from a chick, slowly waste away while having seizures or classic Marek's paralysis knowing that the outcome is going to be either let the bird suffer or end it's suffering. I am of the mindset out of necessity that a large percentage of my birds are going to die and I am set to loose all of my standard birds at some point to Marek's disease. The ones I save will be as a doctor I talked to at The University of Missouri Veterinary Lab told me, too old to reproduce by the time they reach an age where they are truly marked as resistant.

I truly hate this disease and am doing the best I can to keep my flock going. Many time's I've considered culling all birds that are even showing the slightest sign of the disease but I cannot bring myself to do it. Sorry. I'm sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks. Just cannot write any more.

 

[orrpeople]

I can honestly say that my keel bone ratings are all over the board, especially with my Buff Orpingtons and Welsummers. The roosters are in the 0-1 rating and I have hens that are in the 1 rating. The hens that are showing resistance are in the 2 rating generally. Maybe 3 that have a solid 3 rating. Those birds that are in the 0 to 1 rating are the ones that I watch carefully as they will be the next ones to either die or be culled. At least that is the way it has been running with my birds. All birds that I have lost have a 0 or lower keel bone rating. No adipose tissue, muscle or fat on them. Just walking skeletons. I also have multiple feeders in pens and runs so no chicken is bullied away from the food. In spite of healthy appetites, ample food and healthy treats the ones with a 0 to 1 keel bone ranking do not gain weight.

The breeder that I bought my birds from recommended Game bird finisher after 8 weeks of age and before then Game Bird Starter. You have to understand, where we live, finding pelleted all flock feed is very hard to do. I could switch them back to a game bird starter but that will raise the protein in their diets and yes, I noticed them really porking on the weight when I fed that to them over the summer while integrating younger fledglings into the flock. Also no scratch or boss goes into the main feeders. They have a treat feeder that gets their ration of boss and scratch put into it every morning along with a ration of their regular feed. When that is gone, that's it for the day, and yes,they do eat the regular feed and eat from their feeders after that.

So you can see my dilemma. It's impossible to split up a flock of 58 birds so that I can feed extra protein to group A and B so they gain weight (which they won't) give all flock to group C so they maintain and a low protein feed to group D so they loose weight. Just not possible to do and caring for them would be way more complicated than I want it to be nor do I have the desire or space for that many pens.

As for not wanting to open my birds. Like I said, they are pets each and every one of them. It's a personal choice not to open them when they die. It's as same as the choice I have made not to eat any of my birds. With a solid diagnosis of Marek's in my flock, as long as a bird does not present with symptoms of parasite over load, injury, or infection such as swollen sinuses or nasal discharge, I assume that death is caused by Marek's related tumors, fungal infection due to compromised immune system) or paralysis (which I have also observed in two of my birds that I have lost)

Frankly, in the chicken world, there is nothing more painful than watching a bird that you have raised from a chick, slowly waste away while having seizures or classic Marek's paralysis knowing that the outcome is going to be either let the bird suffer or end it's suffering. I am of the mindset out of necessity that a large percentage of my birds are going to die and I am set to loose all of my standard birds at some point to Marek's disease. The ones I save will be as a doctor I talked to at The University of Missouri Veterinary Lab told me, too old to reproduce by the time they reach an age where they are truly marked as resistant.

I truly hate this disease and am doing the best I can to keep my flock going. Many time's I've considered culling all birds that are even showing the slightest sign of the disease but I cannot bring myself to do it. Sorry. I'm sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks. Just cannot write any more.

Oh friend- stupid, stupid disease. It really makes little difference to me that it's "everywhere", because, frankly, it's here - and we are dealing with it now.
Sometimes, I think, all our researching, dietary plans, cleaning regimens, supplements, etc. are just huge attempts to have a little control over the thing.
Only you know your flock. Only you can make the informed decisions that you think are best. My good friend @WVduckchick always says, "My incubator, my rules." (She's a rabid hands on gal who sometimes takes a bit of flack - but it WORKS for her.)
My Marek's, my rules.
Now, are we all open to the exchange of ideas? You betcha. But ultimately it's just between you and your fluff butts.
Let's make it a good one for the "survivors!"

 

[microchick]

Oh friend- stupid, stupid disease. It really makes little difference to me that it's "everywhere", because, frankly, it's here - and we are dealing with it now.
Sometimes, I think, all our researching, dietary plans, cleaning regimens, supplements, etc. are just huge attempts to have a little control over the thing.
Only you know your flock. Only you can make the informed decisions that you think are best. My good friend @WVduckchick always says, "My incubator, my rules." (She's a rabid hands on gal who sometimes takes a bit of flack - but it WORKS for her.)
My Marek's, my rules.
Now, are we all open to the exchange of ideas? You betcha. But ultimately it's just between you and your fluff butts.
Let's make it a good one for the "survivors!"

Well said @orrpeople. Amen to that and thank you. We are all doing the best we can against a ruthless predator of a disease. Ultimately the losses will be high but some will survive.

Just let my babies out. Nobody dead this morning so it's a good day!

 

[orrpeople]

Speaking or predators...lost a stubborn little "I sleep in trees, thanks" cockerel last night. Pretty sure the raccoon next door didn't get the meaty feast he'd been anticipating. Hate to have any losses, but sometimes...

Vaccinated this morning.

 

[microchick]

Thanks for posting the pic, @orrpeople.

I'm debating doing that. DH is for it. I'm wondering how to do it with broody hatched chicks where they may hatch over a 24 hour period and the serum is only good for X number of hours after activation.

Wouldn't mind seeing a picture study and reading an article about the ins and outs of small flock vaccinating.

I'm having to figure out how to move birds around this morning. I really don't want to put the OMD birds in with birds that are not showing any symptoms but I'm needing to get some young cockerels out of the main coop due to them entering the hormonal, I'm a jerk phase of life and badgering the devil out of the pullets.

I can't put standard roosters in with the bantams, but I can put the standard hens that are healthy in with the bantam hens which leaves what to do with the bantam roosters and standard roosters because the bantam roosters beat the dirt out of my standard roosters even if they are in a cockerel pen. It's really pretty amazing to see 7 little 2 pound bantams swarm all over an 8 pound rooster and adjust his attitude for him.

It all works out to a 'who's on first scenario, thanks mainly to the Marek's problem.

 

[duluthralphie]

Thanks for posting the pic, @orrpeople.

I'm debating doing that. DH is for it. I'm wondering how to do it with broody hatched chicks where they may hatch over a 24 hour period and the serum is only good for X number of hours after activation.

Wouldn't mind seeing a picture study and reading an article about the ins and outs of small flock vaccinating.

I'm having to figure out how to move birds around this morning. I really don't want to put the OMD birds in with birds that are not showing any symptoms but I'm needing to get some young cockerels out of the main coop due to them entering the hormonal, I'm a jerk phase of life and badgering the devil out of the pullets.

I can't put standard roosters in with the bantams, but I can put the standard hens that are healthy in with the bantam hens which leaves what to do with the bantam roosters and standard roosters because the bantam roosters beat the dirt out of my standard roosters even if they are in a cockerel pen. It's really pretty amazing to see 7 little 2 pound bantams swarm all over an 8 pound rooster and adjust his attitude for him.

It all works out to a 'who's on first scenario, thanks mainly to the Marek's problem.

I think with broody hatch it would be a waste of time and money. The vaccine takes 10 days to work. You have to hope and pray and try to keep the virus away from them. If they are under the broody the dander and virus is right there all the time.

Just my thoughts on that. Could be right..could be wrong..

 

[microchick]

Well, that was my thoughts also but wondered if vaccine might give them some protection after the 24 hours after hatch. It's easier to keep infected dander out of my incubator/brooding area at least in high concentration than it is in the broody coop or main coop.

@orrpeople. Sorry you lost a bird. Stubborn little creatures, aren't they? Even if it means their demise. Still it's hard to loose a bird when you know it isn't directly related to Marek's disease. .

I remember when we bought our homestead the previous owner had free range birds. One evening I walked under a big fir tree out front, looked up and saw a big old hen sitting there in the branches. I asked the old owner if he knew he had a hen in the fir tree and he just laughed and said yeah, that old hen, never could get her to sleep in the barn.

 

[orrpeople]

I, unintentionally, now have a giant science experiment going on with my three hatches of shipped Ayam Cemani eggs (and a couple of mine in the mix). I have two "being raised by a broody, non-vaccinated" birds. Then I have three "being raised in a brooder, but vaccinated late" (I know, I know, "they" say the vaccine is only good for day old chicks - I had a ton extra and knew it wouldn't hurt them). And then I have the three that hatched yesterday that were vaccinated as day olds.
Whew. Now comes the very long "wait and see".

 

[orrpeople]

Thanks for posting the pic, @orrpeople.

I'm debating doing that. DH is for it. I'm wondering how to do it with broody hatched chicks where they may hatch over a 24 hour period and the serum is only good for X number of hours after activation.

Wouldn't mind seeing a picture study and reading an article about the ins and outs of small flock vaccinating.

I'm having to figure out how to move birds around this morning. I really don't want to put the OMD birds in with birds that are not showing any symptoms but I'm needing to get some young cockerels out of the main coop due to them entering the hormonal, I'm a jerk phase of life and badgering the devil out of the pullets.

I can't put standard roosters in with the bantams, but I can put the standard hens that are healthy in with the bantam hens which leaves what to do with the bantam roosters and standard roosters because the bantam roosters beat the dirt out of my standard roosters even if they are in a cockerel pen. It's really pretty amazing to see 7 little 2 pound bantams swarm all over an 8 pound rooster and adjust his attitude for him.

It all works out to a 'who's on first scenario, thanks mainly to the Marek's problem.

Yeah, I get this. At some point though, they're all exposed...
I had two coops that lost birds to MDV - I started to view those coops as "poisonous", and then I realized like a major face-palm, all my unvaccinated birds are in those two coops. Sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake!

 

[microchick]

Yeah, I know. Been there done that. I'm that way with one of my coops. I have a shed converted to coop coop that is good sized and houses my bantams, then I have a coop on skids that was my original coop, two levels, lower and upper. My 18 remaining standards are now housed there and I have a bachelor Welsummer rooster (sweet boy got the snot stomped out of him by the bantam roosters and had to be pulled for two weeks in order to heal him up. One healed up, the standard sized birds wouldn't take him back) a young Buff O/OEGB cross cockerel and his two bantam brood sisters in the lower coop. I've housed several broodies and their chicks in those two coops but I still cringe when I use them because the standard sized birds were in that coop when I first started loosing birds.

Like you I did a face-palm at some point like a bit ol' light bulb going off over my head and declared, darn, they ALL are exposed to it. IT'S EVERYWHERE!

You will have to keep us informed about your test subjects. I'll be interested in seeing how things go with your chicks. I would love to have Cemanis but.......sigh. My big plan is to introduce vaccinated Egyptian Fayoumis into the flock next year...pullets and by the time they are at POL I should be having a good idea which of my cast of thousands (it seems) bantam cockerels are going start showing resistance and start cross breeding them.