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Icelandic Chickens
- Thread starter The Sheriff
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Nope, not gonna' take that bet!
- Jun 24, 2008
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As a relative new-comer to this group, I have to say I'm a little taken aback - shocked and dismayed really - by the less-than-respectful tone that's been used to communicate the urgency felt in protecting the genetic purity of Icelandic chickens. As an Icelandic chicken preservationist, I too feel that urgency and will certainly do my part to secure the purity of my stock, but I do think it's at least as important that we respect "the good people of the flock" (one another) as human beings with feelings while respecting the need to safeguard our Icelandic stock.
Personally, when I made the decision to acquire a stock of Icelandics I did so with the understanding that I would be participating in a preservationist effort. I happily undertook that responsibility, knowing full well what it meant. Now that I've had my Icelandics for a brief couple of months, already my interest and fervor for preserving these unique chickens has but grown. They truly are like no other chicken I've ever raised, in all the best ways. And I would hope that all Icelandic preservationists can agree that while preservation of genetic purity is an absolute, the spirit and work of preservation extends beyond stock purity to also include preserving the integrity of the available genetic stock. Even more so, with such a limited gene pool as we have to work with here in the U.S., that becomes a critical issue. So while we individually may rush to flog anyone who dares to threaten the sanctity of keeping Icelandic chickens pure, we should likewise be actively coordinating as a group to broaden the scope of the gene pool and strategizing about how to minimize known genetic defects that have appeared (e.g. fray feathering) and may yet appear. Have I missed those discussions? If not, then I'm happy and eager to inaugurate one.
In the interest of establishing as diverse a genetic stock for myself as possible, I acquired a couple of cockerels from Icelander. If I'm not mistaken, Icelander's stock came from a recent importation of hatching eggs directly from Iceland, sourced from one of the leaders of the preservationist movement back in the homeland (Icelander, do you care to say more about that?). I'm excited to breed those roosters to the hens I have that came from Sheriff's stock which will serve to inject fresh genetics into and broaden the genetic scope of already-established U.S. lines. How lucky are we that people continue to import fresh genes and then choose to share them! Thank you for your generosity, Icelander!!
As to the already apparent fray-feathering issue that has expressed in Sheriff's lines (I say this not from accusation or supposition but from first-hand knowledge, as the photo I posted yesterday demonstrates -- I have a fray-feathered hen that originated from Sheriff's lines), I will not be including that hen's genes in any hatchings. I also euthanized a chick I got from Sheriff that exhibited a feathering/growth deformity (refer to the pics I posted of it on this thread a few wks back). Sheriff, to her credit, has been very forthcoming about this genetic issue in her stock and has actively worked to eliminate it from her lines. There is apparently work yet to be done in that regard. I challenge and encourage our fellow preservationists to join with Sheriff and myself in prioritizing the eradication of fray-feathering and any other genetic anomalies that may arise as a result of working with such a restricted gene pool as we have.
I'm definitely appreciative to have this group of whole-hearted Icelandic chicken enthusiasts to collaborate with, and I'm certainly happy to have Icelandic chickens on my homestead. Here's to a positive, supportive, respectful future for the Icelandics, and us! … Ig Vigé
Personally, when I made the decision to acquire a stock of Icelandics I did so with the understanding that I would be participating in a preservationist effort. I happily undertook that responsibility, knowing full well what it meant. Now that I've had my Icelandics for a brief couple of months, already my interest and fervor for preserving these unique chickens has but grown. They truly are like no other chicken I've ever raised, in all the best ways. And I would hope that all Icelandic preservationists can agree that while preservation of genetic purity is an absolute, the spirit and work of preservation extends beyond stock purity to also include preserving the integrity of the available genetic stock. Even more so, with such a limited gene pool as we have to work with here in the U.S., that becomes a critical issue. So while we individually may rush to flog anyone who dares to threaten the sanctity of keeping Icelandic chickens pure, we should likewise be actively coordinating as a group to broaden the scope of the gene pool and strategizing about how to minimize known genetic defects that have appeared (e.g. fray feathering) and may yet appear. Have I missed those discussions? If not, then I'm happy and eager to inaugurate one.
In the interest of establishing as diverse a genetic stock for myself as possible, I acquired a couple of cockerels from Icelander. If I'm not mistaken, Icelander's stock came from a recent importation of hatching eggs directly from Iceland, sourced from one of the leaders of the preservationist movement back in the homeland (Icelander, do you care to say more about that?). I'm excited to breed those roosters to the hens I have that came from Sheriff's stock which will serve to inject fresh genetics into and broaden the genetic scope of already-established U.S. lines. How lucky are we that people continue to import fresh genes and then choose to share them! Thank you for your generosity, Icelander!!
As to the already apparent fray-feathering issue that has expressed in Sheriff's lines (I say this not from accusation or supposition but from first-hand knowledge, as the photo I posted yesterday demonstrates -- I have a fray-feathered hen that originated from Sheriff's lines), I will not be including that hen's genes in any hatchings. I also euthanized a chick I got from Sheriff that exhibited a feathering/growth deformity (refer to the pics I posted of it on this thread a few wks back). Sheriff, to her credit, has been very forthcoming about this genetic issue in her stock and has actively worked to eliminate it from her lines. There is apparently work yet to be done in that regard. I challenge and encourage our fellow preservationists to join with Sheriff and myself in prioritizing the eradication of fray-feathering and any other genetic anomalies that may arise as a result of working with such a restricted gene pool as we have.
I'm definitely appreciative to have this group of whole-hearted Icelandic chicken enthusiasts to collaborate with, and I'm certainly happy to have Icelandic chickens on my homestead. Here's to a positive, supportive, respectful future for the Icelandics, and us! … Ig Vigé
- Jun 5, 2011
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Wait. Am I missing something? Frayed feathers is a defect? Howeso. i was under the impression that the huge variety of featherings and color paterns was the genetics of the birds? How can that variety be deamed a "defect"?
I will admit that I did not succeed in reading this thread start to finish. I gave up around page 800something and and skipped ahead. But I haven't seen anything mentioning that any of the color patterns or feather types pictured were "defects"
I will admit that I did not succeed in reading this thread start to finish. I gave up around page 800something and and skipped ahead. But I haven't seen anything mentioning that any of the color patterns or feather types pictured were "defects"
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What is it with that? No matter how big the brooder, standing in the food dish is required.
They all fit pretty nicely when they were younger but now that they're bigger.....it's a push-n-shove to see who will be left out!Mary that reminds me of stuffing kids in a Volkswagen bug!
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What is it with that? No matter how big the brooder, standing in the food dish is required.
This whole discussion is exactly WHY I am against crossing for ANY reason !
We dont know yet WHAT we have genetically !!!
We dont know what REALLY is a defect, or a plus !
No one here other then Mary O'Brian, Mary notafarm, and Kathy have had more then a couple of generations of Icelandics to grow out. At least that I know of, several others I think, not more then a handful anyhow.
IS the frayed gene a defect ?? Who says so ?? Based on what observed experience with the trait?
Who here has grown any out to document that ?? How does the gene act in various breedings? How many proof breedings have been done? How many control breedings with and without the trait?
The truth of the matter folks is that we have a new breed here to work with, and not remotely enough information or experience with them to make any broad statements regarding them, other then that they are beautiful, and fascinating.
No offence meant, but no one here who hasnt grown out a couple generations of them is qualified to state what is a defect and what isnt.
WE JUST DONT KNOW YET !!!!
If you get chicks with different traits , grow them out and see what you have, then contribute that information to the group.
We are a LONG ways from even beginning to know enough about the breed before we can label any traits !
Lets get things in perspective, and not apply our thoughts on other breeds indiscriminately to the Icelandic Chicken without adequate knowledge or experience with the breed.
And to put another perspective on my comments, I have an undergraduate degree in Animal Science with a major in Genetics and my Masters Degree is with a major in Population Genetics, but in fisheries, still, I have over 50 years personal experience in other breeds of chickens, yet I am approaching the Icelandic Chickens as a clean slate to learn about and see what we have in this over 1,000 year pure genetic strain.
We need to exercise extreme care, in learning all that we can about our Chickens, about the only trait that I am aware of that we need to be cautious about is temperament, even there , we could act against the best interests of the breed in eliminating extreme aggression/dominance in destroying the free ranging ability as a survival trait, we just dont know enough yet !!!
Nuff, be careful please !
I love the pics of the broodies and chicks too, the breed in a microcosm of all that we admire in them, like Forest Gumps box of chocolates, 'ya never know what you'll get'.
Life is good, and better with Icelandic Chickens !
We dont know yet WHAT we have genetically !!!
We dont know what REALLY is a defect, or a plus !
No one here other then Mary O'Brian, Mary notafarm, and Kathy have had more then a couple of generations of Icelandics to grow out. At least that I know of, several others I think, not more then a handful anyhow.
IS the frayed gene a defect ?? Who says so ?? Based on what observed experience with the trait?
Who here has grown any out to document that ?? How does the gene act in various breedings? How many proof breedings have been done? How many control breedings with and without the trait?
The truth of the matter folks is that we have a new breed here to work with, and not remotely enough information or experience with them to make any broad statements regarding them, other then that they are beautiful, and fascinating.
No offence meant, but no one here who hasnt grown out a couple generations of them is qualified to state what is a defect and what isnt.
WE JUST DONT KNOW YET !!!!
If you get chicks with different traits , grow them out and see what you have, then contribute that information to the group.
We are a LONG ways from even beginning to know enough about the breed before we can label any traits !
Lets get things in perspective, and not apply our thoughts on other breeds indiscriminately to the Icelandic Chicken without adequate knowledge or experience with the breed.
And to put another perspective on my comments, I have an undergraduate degree in Animal Science with a major in Genetics and my Masters Degree is with a major in Population Genetics, but in fisheries, still, I have over 50 years personal experience in other breeds of chickens, yet I am approaching the Icelandic Chickens as a clean slate to learn about and see what we have in this over 1,000 year pure genetic strain.
We need to exercise extreme care, in learning all that we can about our Chickens, about the only trait that I am aware of that we need to be cautious about is temperament, even there , we could act against the best interests of the breed in eliminating extreme aggression/dominance in destroying the free ranging ability as a survival trait, we just dont know enough yet !!!
Nuff, be careful please !
I love the pics of the broodies and chicks too, the breed in a microcosm of all that we admire in them, like Forest Gumps box of chocolates, 'ya never know what you'll get'.
Life is good, and better with Icelandic Chickens !
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This is not the appropriate spot for this picture..but sorry I couldn't help myself...Look what I got my Grandkids for Easter that we are celebrating a week late!
- Jun 24, 2008
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- 5
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You bring up excellent points, Jake, and I'm thrilled to see this has elicited some educated (based on your background in genetics) input. I'm not exactly sure, however, what you mean by "Nuff, be careful please!"? I hope you don't mean to infer that my post was careless or to admonish me not to express my opinion and/or perspective?
I absolutely stand corrected in assuming it to be and defining this fray condition (if you will) as a genetic defect. A quick search of this thread results in 9 pages of postings regarding "fray," and based on those postings this condition seems to be a general cause of concern, even to the point that Mary O'Brien has worked to eliminate it from her stock. In my own admittedly brief experience with the ONE chick and the ONE hen I had/have to exhibit atypical feathering conditions (I'm being careful here), I, too, consider what I've observed to be cause for concern. The chick was sickly and failed to thrive, had a normal-sized head and feet but a body that was approx half the size of its hatch mates, and had barely any feathers at all (again, I refer you to the pics I posted a few wks back). I did choose to euthanize the poor thing rather than allow it to continue in its apparent suffering, and Mary expressed her agreement with my decision. The hen is another case altogether. She is in fine health, hearty and spirited and an excellent layer. She has a great disposition and I'm really pretty bummed that I can't include her (or maybe I should say won't include her, based on my own criteria) in my breedings. She cannot fly, even to the point that I had to install ramps for her to be able to reach the lowest rungs of both the nest boxes and the roosts that are all of 3 feet above the ground at their lowest points. One of the criteria I have for a homestead flock is that they have strong natural instincts and the ability to evade predation. I've witnessed coyotes coming up through the trees and attacking my flock, and those that could fly best faired best. Pala, the hen in question, would be a quick coyote snack.
That's not to say her chicks would automatically inherit the feathering condition. Actually, it appears from the photo Kate (aka Totalcoleur) posted the other day that the chick she hatched from Pala's egg is so far typically-feathered. But I'd rather eliminate compromising traits from my stock if I can. Does that mean I'm a bad preservationist? Should I instead just let the landrace continue to evolve on its own without any predetermined selections? Some might say so, but I contend that we're in an unusual situation here in the U.S. in that we're working with a subset of an already attenuated gene pool, and that imparts a heightened risk of genetic anomalies. Your opinion Jake?
I'm also very interested in hearing other preservationists' opinions on this topic. I do thank you for your heartfelt response Jake. ... Ig
I absolutely stand corrected in assuming it to be and defining this fray condition (if you will) as a genetic defect. A quick search of this thread results in 9 pages of postings regarding "fray," and based on those postings this condition seems to be a general cause of concern, even to the point that Mary O'Brien has worked to eliminate it from her stock. In my own admittedly brief experience with the ONE chick and the ONE hen I had/have to exhibit atypical feathering conditions (I'm being careful here), I, too, consider what I've observed to be cause for concern. The chick was sickly and failed to thrive, had a normal-sized head and feet but a body that was approx half the size of its hatch mates, and had barely any feathers at all (again, I refer you to the pics I posted a few wks back). I did choose to euthanize the poor thing rather than allow it to continue in its apparent suffering, and Mary expressed her agreement with my decision. The hen is another case altogether. She is in fine health, hearty and spirited and an excellent layer. She has a great disposition and I'm really pretty bummed that I can't include her (or maybe I should say won't include her, based on my own criteria) in my breedings. She cannot fly, even to the point that I had to install ramps for her to be able to reach the lowest rungs of both the nest boxes and the roosts that are all of 3 feet above the ground at their lowest points. One of the criteria I have for a homestead flock is that they have strong natural instincts and the ability to evade predation. I've witnessed coyotes coming up through the trees and attacking my flock, and those that could fly best faired best. Pala, the hen in question, would be a quick coyote snack.
I'm also very interested in hearing other preservationists' opinions on this topic. I do thank you for your heartfelt response Jake. ... Ig
'Nuff', as in I've said enough.
Re the fray, we dont know if its a simple autosomal recessive, a cumulative or partially dominant, or what it is. That is why I said, we need to be careful before hanging any labels on it, its not wise to label anything in life without knowing what and were it is.
Is it a simple recessive? Does it travel with other traits? Other alleles? I have had 3 roosters that exhibited feathered legs. Each had different feathering. One tight bodied, one 'normal ' body feathering, and one with some concerns. As it is growing out I see fewer irrregular feathers, not just fray, but size and quality, as it has grown, now approx 6 mos old the only thing I see about him from a 'commercial' standpoint would be size. He is almost half the size of the largest of the three. Is he a cull? Probably, but he gets more observing time.
We have what is arguably the most pure strain of chickens in the world. It would be foolhardy to engage in ANY crossing until we know what we are crossing with. We really DONT know the genetic makeup yet of the Icelandic Chicken. All we can do is make some good general educated guesses.
I had a conversation with someone recently in re to crossing them with other Scandinavian breeds, but I asked them how would we know how to attibute the offsprings traits when we dont even know yet what we have to be crossing anything with ? For me I am thinking that the other Scandinavian breeds that are showing up themselves need some years of growing out and comparing before any crosses are done, anything sooner I believe would be ill advised.
So, those are my points that I dwell on, anyone who has any input, differences or whatever by all means sound out. I am certainly looking for all of the input that I can get on this. Now, and probably years from now.
Life is good, and better with Icelandic Chickens !
Re the fray, we dont know if its a simple autosomal recessive, a cumulative or partially dominant, or what it is. That is why I said, we need to be careful before hanging any labels on it, its not wise to label anything in life without knowing what and were it is.
Is it a simple recessive? Does it travel with other traits? Other alleles? I have had 3 roosters that exhibited feathered legs. Each had different feathering. One tight bodied, one 'normal ' body feathering, and one with some concerns. As it is growing out I see fewer irrregular feathers, not just fray, but size and quality, as it has grown, now approx 6 mos old the only thing I see about him from a 'commercial' standpoint would be size. He is almost half the size of the largest of the three. Is he a cull? Probably, but he gets more observing time.
We have what is arguably the most pure strain of chickens in the world. It would be foolhardy to engage in ANY crossing until we know what we are crossing with. We really DONT know the genetic makeup yet of the Icelandic Chicken. All we can do is make some good general educated guesses.
I had a conversation with someone recently in re to crossing them with other Scandinavian breeds, but I asked them how would we know how to attibute the offsprings traits when we dont even know yet what we have to be crossing anything with ? For me I am thinking that the other Scandinavian breeds that are showing up themselves need some years of growing out and comparing before any crosses are done, anything sooner I believe would be ill advised.
So, those are my points that I dwell on, anyone who has any input, differences or whatever by all means sound out. I am certainly looking for all of the input that I can get on this. Now, and probably years from now.
Life is good, and better with Icelandic Chickens !
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