Icelandic Chickens

[RedIII]

So, if I understand what's being said here, it's that: because of the limited stock of Icelandic poultry that has been imported into the US, it creates more room for a mutation to happen? In other words, if you have a huge population of chickens, a recessive gene is more likely to go unnoticed, because there are so many more birds that can carry dominant genes that will kind of eradicate the recessive mutant gene. But where you have a smaller population of that chicken, such as imported stock, if there are enough birds in that stock that carry the recessive gene, it is far more likely that the mutation will manifest, due to restricted numbers?

Kathy, if I'm understanding what you mean by your last post, it's kind of like making a copy of a copy, in a roundabouts way. There's just more chance for the gene to add up from two parents who carry it here, since there are fewer birds here than in Iceland?

I find this genetic stuff very interesting.

 

[RedIII]

I don't doubt you know your genetics, and I am not saying the location is the cause, rather I am saying that if a mutation happens regardless of location that it would happen everywhere, regardless of location, including in Iceland. However, it seems this mutation has only happened in the U.S.

Do you know if we are dealing with just one original mutation that has been copied to males and females (that then have frayed offspring), or is this a mutation that happens regularly in different birds?

That actually would be very interesting to know. It makes me wonder that if you were to take a random selection of native Icelandic chickens (or really, any breed of chicken) what the ratios would be for recessive mutant genes, as compared to the preferred genes that affect that breed's standard? It kind of reminds me of how yellowing can show up in the Delaware breed.

 

[kathyinmo]

X

 

[Icelander]

Maybe they don't survive the Iceland winters but once brought here due ti the warmer weather they survive and pass the genes on.

Thanks, I thought about that, but I would think that the breeders would have at least seen the feathers before the chicks pass and at the very least know about it. In any case, many Icie flocks in Iceland have been in insulated and even heated buildings for years now, bred in incubators and heated indoor brooders, and the weather is not that much colder than Western Washington, so if they had any I think "fray" or "funky feathers" or something like that would be a known condition. But it doesn't appear from what I've seen so far that owners in Iceland have been noticing any genetic feathering issues at all. So why do these mutations not happen to Icelandics in Iceland? What is the difference? Like Kathy says, it is not just the location. Perhaps it is random, but then why isn't it "randomly" happening in Iceland as well? I don't know, but I would like to.

 

[kathyinmo]

X

 

[RedIII]

No. Mutations can occur anywhere, anytime, to anyone. An example is this:

You grew from a single embryonic cell to the person you are now through mitosis. Even after you are grown, mitosis replaces cells lost through everyday wear and tear. The constant replenishment of your skin cells, for example, occurs through mitosis. Mitosis takes place in cells in all parts of your body, keeping your tissues and organs in good working order. Over and over again.

Mitosis itself can cause mutations, because each time a cell's DNA is copied, errors are made. (Fortunately, almost all of these errors are corrected by our extremely efficient DNA repair systems.) So there's an inherent tradeoff in mitosis: It allows us to grow to maturity and keeps us healthy, but it's also the source of potentially damaging DNA mutations.

Right. So, kind of like a copy of a copy, in some respects? It doesn't matter where the chicken is located - only that if enough of the mutant genes add up, they begin to manifest in a noticeable way, such as the fraying that some chickens display? Does that make sense?

This is how I understand it: If you put 98 green marbles in a jar, then add 2 blue, your chances of randomly grabbing a blue marble is very slim. However, if you gradually take out green marbles and replace them with blue, your chances of seeing a blue marble are going to get better.

Is it possible that this gene has just added up like this over time? Or do you think it's something that just -HELLO!- randomly came out of nowhere, just because it mutated in a bird and started being passed on to future generations? I know that mutations come from somewhere, obviously. I'm just wondering how long this particular mutation has been around, and if it's been dormant for a while, why it's manifesting more in some of the birds we have.

 

[RedIII]

Simply put -
When the cells were being reproduced (this is an ongoing process in all living things), a mutation happened. This mutation was the fray gene. It can happen to any flock, any location, any time.

Gotcha

I kind of already said in the post I put up a second ago that it makes me wonder how long the mutation has actually been around. For example, if it's been around for a while, or if it's a new mutations that just recently popped up. Make sense?

Edited to say: So, the fray gene is only one type of mutation, right? There could be other mutations that could pop up, such as a different coloration, crooked toes, a shorter or longer tail, etc.

 

[Icelander]

So, if I understand what's being said here, it's that: because of the limited stock of Icelandic poultry that has been imported into the US, it creates more room for a mutation to happen? In other words, if you have a huge population of chickens, a recessive gene is more likely to go unnoticed, because there are so many more birds that can carry dominant genes that will kind of eradicate the recessive mutant gene. But where you have a smaller population of that chicken, such as imported stock, if there are enough birds in that stock that carry the recessive gene, it is far more likely that the mutation will manifest, due to restricted numbers?

Kathy, if I'm understanding what you mean by your last post, it's kind of like making a copy of a copy, in a roundabouts way. There's just more chance for the gene to add up from two parents who carry it here, since there are fewer birds here than in Iceland?

I find this genetic stuff very interesting.

Thanks Red, I also thought about this, but the thing is, we have had very inbred and isolated flocks of birds in Iceland (to the point where one farm has a very distinct group of birds, considerably genetically different from all other Icelandic Settlement Chickens, considered by some to be a separate strain) without me being able to find a single mention of a genetic fray issue. Some of these birds had been isolated for a long time in very small flocks when the revival and rescue happened. I find it hard to understand that if the gene hides undetected in the Icelandic breed in Iceland for 1200 years under heavy inbreeding and isolation, how come it does not get expressed there at all, but has popped up in the U.S. in a couple of decades? If location doesn't matter, why doesn't this also happen in Iceland?

 

[Icelander]

Simply put -
When the cells were being reproduced (this is an ongoing process in all living things), a mutation happened. This mutation was the fray gene. It can happen to any flock, any location, any time.

Right. No argument there. But why only in the U.S.?

 

[Icelander]

Gotcha

I kind of already said in the post I put up a second ago that it makes me wonder how long the mutation has actually been around. For example, if it's been around for a while, or if it's a new mutations that just recently popped up. Make sense?

Edited to say: So, the fray gene is only one type of mutation, right? There could be other mutations that could pop up, such as a different coloration, crooked toes, a shorter or longer tail, etc.

Exactly. This is also what I am wondering.