Improvement when you can't find show stock...

[walkswithdog]

I'm going to be starting from a heritage flock of Partridge Rocks. I've seen Partridge compared to show barreds and whites LF. Partridge Rocks haven't been bred for size or consistency to the same degree the more popular colors have been.

If I cannot find SQ Partridge besides culling and choosing properly among my flock, can I /should I use barreds or whites to improve size. I know I can find SQ in either of those colors.

I know it can take a LONG time if I just work up from what I start with. I don't mind that. I'm just looking at efficiency and practicality.

Color wise, is one choice simpler than the other? Will barring really muddy the waters? Is white the better choice?

Thinking out loud. Chere

 

[pipermark]

First, to improve an existing breed, do the research and find out from what other breeds or Variates the breed or variety you are working on originated from . This will add back the most genetic diversity, allowing you more time to properly develop a line using inline breeding techniques.

The Plymouth Rock was developed in New England in the middle of the 19th century and was first exhibited as a breed in 1869. Several individuals claimed its invention, using crosses of Dominiques, Black Javas, Cochins, and perhaps Malays and Dorking


Ok given the above I would look at using a partridge Cochin rooster to begin moving your birds back to the proper size (while your at it, I bet you their eggs are smaller than they should be and possibly they don't lay as often as they should).
This should help you maintain cone and feathering while improving size. You would need to cross its young back to a Rock rooster.


There is another way , that's to look for a breed that has almost all the characteristic of the breed and variety you want to improve, but will add the most genetic diversity. In this case , I would choose a true Rhode Island Red.

This was found on a Plymouth Rock website

Partridge Plymouth Rocks are the subject of a heated controversy concerning origin. At least three strains were developed at roughly the same period, that being the late 1800’s through early 1900’s. It is determined that all strains included the introduction of Partridge Cochin blood to help secure proper color. It is interesting to note that in 1910 at the Madison Square Garden show, the Partridge Rocks on display were compared favorably with the Barreds and Whites in attendance.

Someone here might know how to contact Donna West, she use to have great partridge Cochins , you can find pictures of her birds on the internet.

 

[walkswithdog]

Pipermark, THANKS. I had looked at the origin page and considered Partridge Cochins

Glad I'm mentally not too far off the mark.

I will look up the other information. Hadn't considered a true RIR but it makes good sense.

I was actually going to get in BBS cochins and GL but I see that while I'm getting a featherfoot fix, I can also be doing something for my PRs that would work. Partridge cochins make sense, a fix and an improver.

I'm getting in dorkings because I'm going to compare them to dark cornish and black broilers. I had forgotten their role in the PR, I'll hold out the better dorkings as part of the PR background.

I will see if I can get in contact with the Partridge Cochin breeder through Cochins International.

This whole thing is really interesting.

Thanks again.

 

[Vcomb]

in theory, you could use barred or white rocks. the key is finding out what the barred rock is genetically underneath the barring, same thing with the white. you may be able to find a line of solid whites that have partridge in their ancestry. you also then have to find out if they are dominant white or recessive white. barreds could be the easiest way, as the first generation will be something of a crele colored bird, from which you'd pick the biggest best males (since they are impure for the barring) to breed back to the partridge.

 

[walkswithdog]

Vcomb, thanks, more mad note taking. I contacted Cochins International for Partridge Cochins contacts. They've several people on their master's lists, so, hopeful.

Show Barreds and show whites should have some idea of what is behind their birds with any luck but experimentation does prove out in the long run without them knowing

nice thing about genetics, the proof pops out of the egg.

Okay, I wouldn't mind some crele looking birds around for awhile.

if I went with barreds. It's a nice idea, made me smile.

The mischief behind white could also be fun.

And I can see the value of buffing out the lines with the other stock that initially comprised it. Even if it means working back out feather feet, or from dorkings the rose comb when it shows.

It's far more interesting to have decided to really work at it than just "keeping" them. I like a good project. And the whole idea behind good heritage keeping strikes me as proper and worth doing. I've got nine acres, why the heck not? LOL

 

[walkswithdog]

Thanks to NYREDS, I'm in hot pursuit of show PR's again. Wish me luck. If I don't have to totally reinvent the wheel, I'd rather not.

Still, I've had better luck reaching cochin and dorking people

But I can continue to hope.

I did get a hit from someone on the Plymouth site so here's to hope.

 

[walkswithdog]

:bump

Shamelessly bumping my thread. Another week of emails, contacts and... nothing. Subscribed to Poultry Press.

Got a nice hit from a partridge cochin exhibitor.

Found good dorkings.

Who knew you could easier find dorking eggs than eggs from exhibition partridge rocks?

The crohioRock site is a bust. I did try several phone calls through the APA. No hits.

If I don't get any partridge rocks in until I find partridge rocks in SQ, I might die of old age first.

I can always cull lesser birds later. Which I'd be doing in any case. At least at the shows I'm getting a real feel for proper form. Might pull in a few good white rocks, there's a nice pool of them locally. Started a second coop. After all I have nine acres.

 

[halo]

It might be interesting trying just a few barred rocks. I dont know squat (no pun intended) about genetics, but from what little I do understand about barring, if you breed a barred roo to un-barred hens, all the offspring will have some form of barring, but if you breed a non barred roo (partridge?) to barred hens, the male chicks will be barred but the females wont. So I dont know if that means the females would be black, or if the partridge would come thru the females.

 

[walkswithdog]

That's something of the tactics I'm going to employ. It's good advice.

The local whites are better than the barreds slightly but they do for the most part, have a barring background to them. So the man I was talking to suggested starter pullets. Partridge R roo and starter show whites, should improve things pretty quickly. It just means culling which I plan to do here pretty aggressively anyway.

At least I'm getting somewhere now

I appreciate all the help and suggestions.