Improving your flock!

[CUDA]

Yep, nothing wrong with that, to each their own. I am not telling anyone not to try to keep them alive if that is their wish, more power to you if that is what you want to do. I used to do it too when I first started out, and I think you will see that I try to help a lot of people on the forum with health issues. I understand both sides, really. I was putting this out there for people to see, and make their own decision, based on what is right for them. I was not trying to stir things up, just offering some friendly advice. Especially since hatching season is finally here!

 

[ebonykawai]

Actually, I got the point, thanks.

I don't help my chicks hatch, and I only wait a certain length of time before I dispose of non-hatching eggs. But if one of mine hatched and had splayed legs, I would personally splint it. Just my own opinion, which I was sharing, as you shared yours.

 

[speckledhen]

It certainly gives us something to think about long and hard. We all need to consider what our personal philosophies will be and how we will deal with health issues and manage our flocks, especially those just starting out with chicks right now. There are varying viewpoints and and we should take the time to consider what ours will be, or reconsider our views of flock management, as the case may be.

 

[Cara]

I just hatched my first batch of quail, and I was amazed by how quickly a 'sick' chick can come around. One had one splayed leg when it hatched, and by the next morning I couldn't tell which one it was. Another had two splayed legs, and again after 24 hrs in the brooder I wouldn't have a hope of telling you which one it was. I thought another had some kind of neurological problem when it hatched because its head would jerk and it could only wriggle on its side. It was the last to hatch, so I figured i'd leave it overnight in the incubator rather than put it in with the mob. The next morning it was well enough to go in the brooder, and the following day it was running around feeding and drinking like everybody else. The only difference that gives it away is its size.

It makes no sense to me to cull birds that have difficulties or illnesses caused by hatching them in an artificial environment. Equally, even if a bird will not make breeding or show quality, I find it disrespectful to kill them after a few hours of hatching when they could at least enjoy a few months of life and provide food for yourself or others, or enjoy long lives at a new home that will look beyond their physical defects. The 21 days of growth and process of hatching are too great a miracle to turn around and kill a chick before giving it a chance.

 

[Mrs MIA]

If I just pushed my way out of one of those itty bitty eggs, I'd have issues at first, too!

I understand both sides, and it IS a personal decision. When we only had 10 birds, it was an easy decision to separate a sick bird and nurse it back to health. As I reach 100 birds, I'm finding that though my heart wants to take in every injured bird I come across, I just don't have the time any more to properly care for it. It doesn't hurt any less, but I also understand the necessity to remove a bird from the flock in order to preserve the health of the rest of the flock. Especially if part of your income relies on them.

As I've started out on my own venture, I've been told many times that I will be required to "cull ruthlessly" if I'm to keep my stock pure and healthy. But just because a bird has sub-standard feathering doesn't mean I will kill it... I plan on adopting out as many birds as I can, and any that aren't adopted will become dinner.

Please don't get your feather's ruffled... what CUDA is saying is true for anyone above and beyond the small backyard breeder. It's not an easy decision to make, but sometimes a necessary one.

 

[3peeps]

Quote:
I think this is a good point. Here's my addition: I've noticed with my friend's flock, and with my own very young one, philosophies change due to experience and circumstances. One can start out with the best laid plans and not end up going in that direction at all. Also, I think it is best to keep yourself current with health issues and then adapt your own situation using that knowledge, while still being true to your own values. Perhaps I'm just being redundant here...sorry if that's the case! I think that sometimes we don't even know our philosophies until we are greeted with the right situations, people, inspirations, major problems, etc. Maybe that's the beauty of any human interest...discovering your path.

We just brooded three eggs under my BO hen, who did a great job. I told myself I would not interfere with hatching. When it came to the third egg struggling along, my husband gently persuaded me to help. I will have to see how things turn out, but this particular chick is certainly not as vigorous at this point. I'm not sorry we helped it, but I may think twice in the future. It's hard not to project human emotion and values on the animal world, especially when you have a 5-year-old daughter and eager husband looking on.

I think that whatever people choose to do, so long as it is done humanely and with dignity and purpose, is fine and completely acceptable.

 

[chikndave]

"It makes no sense to me to cull birds that have difficulties or illnesses caused by hatching them in an artificial environment."

Statements like these perplex me. I don't want to offend anyone here but please, lets be reasonable. Look at the statement above. If these chicks were hatched by a broody they would die right away, in a much more horrible manner. They would either be pecked and eaten to death or would surly freeze or suffocate due to their inability to very move! lol
A chick that makes it out of the egg and can't move is a weak specimen period.
It was said earlier that splayed leg is not generally considered to be genetic. That is like saying that a dollar in Germany isn't generally called a dollar. It is semantics and not a means of justification. It may not be generally accepted by science as genetic but then again it wasn't generally accepted that the earth was round. Splayed leg is caused by both genetics and deficient diet of the parent fowl. You will notice over time, if you breed these birds, with each successive generation more and more splayed legged chicks will be produced.
I know some of you understand what CUDA is saying when he says the weaker birds will bring down the flock, but some others may be missing the point a bit. You all know the saying a team is only as strong as it's weakest link. Well the same applies to your flock.
A bird hatching with splayed legs tattles on it's self. It is telling you that it is deficient in more than one way. Once the bird is behind on life it will never catch up to the rest. Ever.
It is telling you this. Sure, you can heal the leg but the bird was lacking from the very beginning. This initial lacking means that he will always be sub par. You may not be able to see it or hear it but it is so. If you start a race 10 minutes late, and run the same speed as everyone else you will always be 10 minutes behind. The same is true for your fowl.

But please don't take me wrong. Please, I urge you to play the doctor! It is such a great experience! I wouldn't know half of what I do if not for playing doctor. The knowledge and understanding that can be gained from this is far too invaluable to ignore. I would advise any beginner to play doctor every chance they get. I would also advise them to keep these chicks and adults apart from the remainder of their flock for all time. Disease can destroy everything and weak birds with a late start are always a easy and favorite target of disease.

Hope this helps a bit,
Dave

 

[kstaven]

Some very good points here. When I was in my early teens I would have agreed that culling was not so essential. I had a lot to learn, and that is just part of gaining experience as dave mentioned in the above post. You do what you feel is right at the time and learn from it.

If we look at the word "cull"; To some it does mean to dispose of, but for many others it means to remove from the breeding group. It may become a layer for egg sales, given to a person who wants a laying hen, or it may end up on the table.

Any way you look at it, breeding obviously weak chicks will cause future problems. I learned the hard way in my late teens. I had a chick that started out much slower than the rest, but grew into a gorgeous rooster in the end. I used him one season in my breeding project and ended up spending the next 4 years undoing the damage I had done to the line. I learned my lesson the hard way and now automatically move weak appearing chicks to another brooder. They will NEVER end up in my breeding pool for any reason. Nor will they be given to anyone who intends to breed chickens. I feel I am doing the chicken community a great disservice by passing on any less than thrifty birds to anyone who intends to breed for any reason. Years of work trying to improve a breed can be undone in a flash, by making a simple error in judgement as I have learned the hard way. Passing on a less than thrifty bird to any beginner is just setting them up for failure and likely to turn them off from chickens.

Many may say this attitude and need for selection only applies to serious breeders, but the same holds true for the backyard hobbyist. Hatching from a hen that is a poor layer, will produce more chicks with the same characteristic, that only gets worse with each generation.

Just my two cents and view on this.

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

CUDA, KStaven, and Chikindave:

It is refreshing to see a voice of reason and truth on this board. Far too often we read posts with anthropomorphism, misplaced compassion, and hypocracy. I am sure much of this is due to ignrance and lack of experience as few of us are actually farmers/breeders or have education or experience with animal breeding or production. As Animal Husbands, we have a responsibility to care for our livestock and poultry in an ethical, responsible manner and breeding unthrifty, sickly, or deformed animals is not acceptable no matter how "cute" they may be.

JIm

 

[dlhunicorn]

CUDA wrote:
That's fine until a weak one brings a disease like CRD to your flock, but as I said, JMO. I also have a ton of birds, so some things are different with how I raise them than a person with only a few birds would.

I don't raise just afew birds. I've raised thousands in my life and so have several other folks here. If you have CRD in your chicks you treat it with Tylan, clean your brooder and move on. Once the mycoplasmas are there, they are there. Killing the chick didn't get rid of it. Keep your brooder less dusty and the mycoplasmas won't get irritated therefore turning into CRD. If you don't change the conditions your flock will continue to have problems with CRD. Mycoplasmas are essentially everywhere.

Splayed leg is not considered genetic. Culling this bird won't help either. Splayed legs is usually caused by a bird having improper bedding, or dietary indeficiencies. It can also be caused when an egg didn't develop normal, but it is not generally considered a genetic issue.​

I concur... and I understand the issues facing those who deal with their birds as livestock (incl breeding livestock) and what the author is stating (useful to those having flocks as livestock) ... I have no problem with their choices
...however... I take exception to:

Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay
Today 7:59 am CUDA, KStaven, and Chikindave:

It is refreshing to see a voice of reason and truth on this board. Far too often we read posts with anthropomorphism, misplaced compassion, and hypocracy. I am sure much of this is due to ignrance and lack of experience as few of us are actually farmers/breeders or have education or experience with animal breeding or production.

this label being put on those who choose to treat or choose to make pets of an animal so many view as "livestock" and the above is not appreciated.​