Inbreeding with coturnix quail.

[Del1977]

Unintentionally hijacked another thread when I mentioned inbreeding so thought I had better start my own.

Had two opposite opinions on whether or not you can inbreed with coturnix quail. Reason I bought it up was because we have had to buy fertile eggs this year to continue breeding due to deformities from out first inbreed hatch last year. 'Father' was mating with 'mother' and their two daughters. The resulting hatch was not good. We had some with serious scull deformities, no eye one side, massive bulging eye the other side, and worst cross beaks I have ever seen. These chicks could not see from what we could tell and had to be hand fed so they were euthanized. Had some with common leg problems, ie splayed legs and curled toes, which we fixed and one with what we think was slipped Achilles tendon that was killed by some baby chickens that hatch at the same time. Anyway, the skull deformities were horrid and we googled it to find that it was usually the result of inbreeding, so decided we wouldn't be doing that again and hence the purchase of some new blood lines.

We did put one of out eggs in with the last batch and it hatched and is perfect. Have more bought eggs in the bator now, which was many, so have also put 18 of our own in to see what happens.

So, my question is, can you or can't you inbreed coturnix quail???

 

[DK newbie]

I don't think it is as simple as that. I read a research report on it, the fertility started dropping almost immediately, but only a little at first and as I recall, the report didn't say much about deformities and similar.
Basically, the problem with inbreeding is that it increases the risk that both male and female have the same unfavorable genes and this again increases the risk that the chicks will display these genes. But if the parents are completely free of anything unfavorable (not that it is ever going to happen, but theoretically), it's not like the chicks will be deform just because the parents have a lot of genetic similarities. If you bought the eggs 'mother' and 'father' hatched from, you can't tell (unless they had completely different colors or similar) whether they were full siblings, possibly inbred for generations already. But you might also just have been unlucky that father gave some bad genes to his daughters that were expressed in their chicks. Or your quail could have been exposed to radiation or other mutagens, just to mention the option..

 

[dc3085]

I don't think it is as simple as that. I read a research report on it, the fertility started dropping almost immediately, but only a little at first and as I recall, the report didn't say much about deformities and similar.
Basically, the problem with inbreeding is that it increases the risk that both male and female have the same unfavorable genes and this again increases the risk that the chicks will display these genes. But if the parents are completely free of anything unfavorable (not that it is ever going to happen, but theoretically), it's not like the chicks will be deform just because the parents have a lot of genetic similarities. If you bought the eggs 'mother' and 'father' hatched from, you can't tell (unless they had completely different colors or similar) whether they were full siblings, possibly inbred for generations already. But you might also just have been unlucky that father gave some bad genes to his daughters that were expressed in their chicks. Or your quail could have been exposed to radiation or other mutagens, just to mention the option..

Ill attempt to explain better when im in front of the pc but there is a huge difference in breeding parent x offspring vs breeding sibling x sibling. No you dont want birds with a huge inbreeding coefficient but the birds that exist today are all the product of line breeding to some extent since we have an essentially closed loop with customs not allowing new genetics into the country. If we didnt inbreed/line breed there would not be jumbo coturnix hitting 14-16 ounces. In 1960 the average size of coturnix was 6-8 ounces. We have gotten almost no new genetics (excepting the recent jmf/schofield deal) in that time in this country, yet US has the heaviest jumbo stock... if you go back far enough only a few farms are responsible for all of this country's coturnix and with limited genetic material available we still have fertile birds that dont exhibit physical defects.

 

[Del1977]

Hmmm. Very interesting. Maybe it was just bad luck then??? Will be interesting to see what emerges from the 18 that are currently in the incubator.

 

[dc3085]

What was your humidity like through incubation? Was it consistent throughout? The reason i ask is spraddle legs and curled toes are a direct result of fluctuating humidity 99% of the time.

 

[luvemal]

I had the very same question so I phoned Robbie and asked him (1337-257-0118). As far as Coturnix Quail are concerned
Pharoah Quail, He told me you can inbreed 5 times without any problems. Robbie as far as I am concerned is the EXPERT.
YOUR POSTING SAID the fertility drops significantly, please supply your source of information. (the documentation please)
Thank you

 

[DK newbie]

I had the very same question so I phoned Robbie and asked him (1337-257-0118). As far as Coturnix Quail are concerned
Pharoah Quail, He told me you can inbreed 5 times without any problems. Robbie as far as I am concerned is the EXPERT.
YOUR POSTING SAID the fertility drops significantly, please supply your source of information. (the documentation please)
Thank you

I'm guessing those capital letters are aimed at me, as I seem to be the only one that has said anything that could be interpreted like that.. Anyway, I didn't say how much the fertility dropped as I simply don't remember - I just remember concluding it wasn't too bad for the first few generations. The research report was linked by someone on this forum, I tried to find it so I could post the link here, but without any luck. I did find this one though - it's very much shorter than the one I referred to, but I guess this is the report people have the 'coturnix are very sensitive to inbreeding'-thing from, as it pretty much says that 3-6 generations of full sibling matings will kill them: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/98/4/378.full

 

[luvemal]

DK Newbie
Please call Robbie and discuss this "Research report" with him, I'm sure he could clarify it for us. I believe what he told me because he breeds 12000 quail and must keep accurate records of deformities, efficiency of egg laying and hatching numbers.

 

[DK newbie]

Well, dc3085 said there is a great difference between breeding parent x offspring vs. breeding sibling x sibling. Maybe Robbie was talking about parent x offspring breedings? Anyway, I don't particularly care exactly how resistant they are to inbreeding, I just think it's an interesting topic. But as I live in Denmark, I suspect it would be somewhat expensive to call Robbie and as I don't even have coturnix quail myself, I don't really feel like doing it. I do believe Robbie has an account on this forum though..

 

[Del1977]

Not sure what humidity was like as don't have a hydrometer and had read splayed legs and curled toes are mostly the result of this, but certainly not the skull deformities from what I've read.

Which combo is better:- parent vs offspring, or sibling vs sibling? Not that I plan on purposely doing much more inbreeding one the other batches reach maturity, but interesting to know incase I have the need too.