Indigo

Discussion in 'Peafowl' started by SuperPeacockman, Sep 1, 2011.

  1. SuperPeacockman

    SuperPeacockman Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Sep 1, 2010
    Long Island, NY
    I am extremely interested about Indigo and the questions and new opportunities it represents. I was thinking about getting a pair and trying to breed it them to Black shoulder, pied, and possibly even silver pied. I just need some help with the genetics. If I breed it to black shoulder I would get IB split to Bs, Purple, and Bronze cocks, I would also get Purple hens split to Bs and Bronze right. I did the punet square earlier without thinking of the fact that purple was sex-linked so I am not sure if I am right about any of this. If I breed those F1s together I would have a 6.25%, with each chick, chance of getting a Indigo Black Shoulder right. Would my chances be the same with pieds and silver pieds, I still do not really understand the genetics with traits that do not breed true. My chances would double if I started with purple or bronze black shoulder, pied or silver pied hens, I think, and I want to work with other breeders so if any breeders have purple or bronze hens in those patterns and would be willing to give or loan me them for this project we could work out a deal in which you got some of the offspring or some of the completed project birds. Please could someone good with peafowl genetics tell me if I am right about everything. - Tristan
     
  2. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:You'd get there faster if you used Purple Blackshoulder or Bronze Blackshoulder to breed to an Indigo, rather than an IB Blackshoulder. Think of it this way -- for the autosomal recessive mutations to show, they need to get a copy from each parent (with sex-linked, boys need one copy from each parent, and girls need one copy just from dad). If you want a bird showing three mutations (Bronze, Purple and Blackshoulder), then you'd be better off if each parent had two of the three, rather than one parent having two and the other having the other one. If you bred an Indigo male to two hens -- one Bronze Blackshoulder and the other Purple Blackshoulder -- you'd have even more success, by breeding half-siblings together.

    I don't even want to touch the pied and silver pied. They confuse me with how they interact (or rather, different opinions on websites confuse me...and since I'm not a fan of pied or white-spotted peafowl, I just never bothered learning further).

    If you want to figure it out using a program, try this one. They don't have one for peafowl, but it doesn't matter. Genes are genes. Pick budgies, and choose mutations which are inherited the same way (Purple is sex-linked, and Bronze and Blackshoulder are autosomal recessive).

    [​IMG]
     
  3. SuperPeacockman

    SuperPeacockman Chillin' With My Peeps

    873
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    139
    Sep 1, 2010
    Long Island, NY
    Quote:You'd get there faster if you used Purple Blackshoulder or Bronze Blackshoulder to breed to an Indigo, rather than an IB Blackshoulder. Think of it this way -- for the autosomal recessive mutations to show, they need to get a copy from each parent (with sex-linked, boys need one copy from each parent, and girls need one copy just from dad). If you want a bird showing three mutations (Bronze, Purple and Blackshoulder), then you'd be better off if each parent had two of the three, rather than one parent having two and the other having the other one. If you bred an Indigo male to two hens -- one Bronze Blackshoulder and the other Purple Blackshoulder -- you'd have even more success, by breeding half-siblings together.

    I don't even want to touch the pied and silver pied. They confuse me with how they interact (or rather, different opinions on websites confuse me...and since I'm not a fan of pied or white-spotted peafowl, I just never bothered learning further).

    If you want to figure it out using a program, try this one. They don't have one for peafowl, but it doesn't matter. Genes are genes. Pick budgies, and choose mutations which are inherited the same way (Purple is sex-linked, and Bronze and Blackshoulder are autosomal recessive).

    [​IMG]

    Read on, I said I thought that using Purple Bs or Bronze Bs would double my chances. Am I right?
     
  4. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:You'd get there faster if you used Purple Blackshoulder or Bronze Blackshoulder to breed to an Indigo, rather than an IB Blackshoulder. Think of it this way -- for the autosomal recessive mutations to show, they need to get a copy from each parent (with sex-linked, boys need one copy from each parent, and girls need one copy just from dad). If you want a bird showing three mutations (Bronze, Purple and Blackshoulder), then you'd be better off if each parent had two of the three, rather than one parent having two and the other having the other one. If you bred an Indigo male to two hens -- one Bronze Blackshoulder and the other Purple Blackshoulder -- you'd have even more success, by breeding half-siblings together.

    I don't even want to touch the pied and silver pied. They confuse me with how they interact (or rather, different opinions on websites confuse me...and since I'm not a fan of pied or white-spotted peafowl, I just never bothered learning further).

    If you want to figure it out using a program, try this one. They don't have one for peafowl, but it doesn't matter. Genes are genes. Pick budgies, and choose mutations which are inherited the same way (Purple is sex-linked, and Bronze and Blackshoulder are autosomal recessive).

    [​IMG]

    Read on, I said I thought that using Purple Bs or Bronze Bs would double my chances. Am I right?

    Ah, sorry...once you mentioned pied and silver pied, I kinda glossed over the rest...

    [​IMG]

    My brain is sleepy...I have to be up in six hours for lab....I'll get back to you later...meantime, check the link I posted, and do what I said.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

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    Sun City, California
    Quote:Oh too bad, was just thinking of asking you about my experiences with crossing silver pied. It has been a frustrating one to understand.
     
  6. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:Oh too bad, was just thinking of asking you about my experiences with crossing silver pied. It has been a frustrating one to understand.

    OK, this is what I THINK a "silver pied" bird is genetically:

    Heterozygous for White

    Homozygous for Pied

    Homozygous for White-Eyed


    From what I remember reading on breeders' sites and forums, when breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you will get some whites out of them (some places said half, which would fit my model above...but like I said, the information varies from place to place...and sometimes I see "Pied White-Eyed" which makes me think the bird is the same as Silver Pied, only it's heterozygous for Pied instead of homozygous, or maybe lacks a copy of the White gene...another reason I don't like coming up with new names for something that's really the result of more than one mutation).

    In any case, it's an interaction of three genes that delete pigment -- and I prefer seeing the colors of the peafowl, rather than a white bird with random spots of color. So...I never really read further into any of the "white" genes (White, Pied, White-Eyed). And I may not have gotten it right about how it is put together genetically. All I know is that when I am ready for my own peafowl, I don't want any birds with white feathers (well....except for Black Shouldered Hens). But that's just my personal preference.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

    6,511
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    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    Quote:Oh too bad, was just thinking of asking you about my experiences with crossing silver pied. It has been a frustrating one to understand.

    OK, this is what I THINK a "silver pied" bird is genetically:

    Heterozygous for White

    Homozygous for Pied

    Homozygous for White-Eyed


    From what I remember reading on breeders' sites and forums, when breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you will get some whites out of them (some places said half, which would fit my model above...but like I said, the information varies from place to place...and sometimes I see "Pied White-Eyed" which makes me think the bird is the same as Silver Pied, only it's heterozygous for Pied instead of homozygous, or maybe lacks a copy of the White gene...another reason I don't like coming up with new names for something that's really the result of more than one mutation).

    In any case, it's an interaction of three genes that delete pigment -- and I prefer seeing the colors of the peafowl, rather than a white bird with random spots of color. So...I never really read further into any of the "white" genes (White, Pied, White-Eyed). And I may not have gotten it right about how it is put together genetically. All I know is that when I am ready for my own peafowl, I don't want any birds with white feathers (well....except for Black Shouldered Hens). But that's just my personal preference.

    [​IMG]

    SP x SP= 1/4 white 1/2 SP 1/4 "dark pied"(homozygous pied/silver pied) is the usual answer. Same as for the 'regular pied'-no white eyes, the originals before silver pied came on the scene.

    It's been said & implied for very long time that white and pied are alleles. Are you aware if this is true or false? Your genotype list above makes me wonder. [​IMG] At the very least, everybody seems to agree: Pied x Pied, whether they be regular or silver pied gives the 1:4:1 results(phenotype at least..), also agrees on white x pied= 1:1 chick ratio, etc. Those seem to support them being alleles but does not rule it out either..? (but would seem incredible if agreement is so universal. surely not all of those whites were hom for pied.. even het would skew the ratio?)

    Way back when I was shopping around for SP, talked to several breeders trying to figure out the possible genotype for silver pied(pied plus white eye was the basic answer I got) plus if they thought I would get silver pieds out of a SP male bred with my white eyed hens heterozygous and homozygous for white(several thought SP chicks would show up). So with that, decided to just get a SP male instead of getting a pair/trio as I had quite a lot of white eyed hens heterozygous and homozygous for white. Two seasons failed to give any SP chicks. Results were same for a new, unrelated SP male over hens with same genotypes. (eventually got a few silver pieds out of F1 hens from first cross bred with the second SP male)

    There are some who suggest Whites from SP matings are genetically different from other Whites (ignoring color mutations for this discussion) as implied by sales adverts with prices for whites out of SP being different from 'regular whites' and also when I relayed my experience of two SP bred with my hens failing to produce any SP chicks- some responses I got were 'have to use white hens from SP matings'- never got an answer to *what* exactly the difference is, though... Other responses were that I did not get any because the chicks were not pure for white eye, but that's the problem- they have to be, if SP are pied, white eye and het white, then breeding a SP with my hens= all homozygous white eyes.. It would really explain so much if white and pied(silver pied?) are not alleles after all, but that's a bit troublesome if 'everybody' agrees on them being alleles and on pied breeding chick ratios. So I end up not being sure what to think, ha!
     
  8. Exotics R Us

    Exotics R Us Out Of The Brooder

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    Jul 18, 2011
    Carolinas
    There are two other breeders that have the Indigos this really isn't a new bird it's just new to you because none of them has said anything about them til now.

    But the 10 dollar question is do they breed true??? and if so why is this the only male that I heard looks what it is supposed to look like??? think maybe they follow the Spalding Greens leans more towards one then the other???

    Ricky
     
  9. bandbaustin

    bandbaustin Chillin' With My Peeps

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    May 21, 2009
    Valparaiso, IN
    Who are the other breeders, I am thinking about some but all i seem to find are people selling india blues and mistakingly calling them indigo blue
     
  10. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:Amazing. When I first posted about the possibility of combining colors , I was told it wasn't possible, and I didn't know what I was talking about. I post the link to a breeder who has them, and I'm told "oh, they've been around, you just haven't heard about them."

    [​IMG]

    Spaldings are the result of a combination of way more than two genes -- they are a hybrid between two different species. The difference between Indigo and IB is just two genes. If both parents have those two genes homozygously, then so will their offspring -- because having a gene homozygously means it's the only version of the gene to be passed on to offspring.

    Spaldings are the result of a combination of way more than two genes -- they are a hybrid between two different species. The difference between a first-generation Spalding and an IB is a whole set of chromosomes. Two F1 Spaldings bred together will throw a random mix of Green and IB genes into their offspring, because they are heterozygous for all the genes that differ between the two species.

    Only if someone manages to line up the desired genes from each species to be had homozygously in the birds -- by selectively breeding Spalding X Spalding, and culling mercilessly over many generations, aiming for a specific "middle-of-the-road" phenotype -- could one possibly arrive at a "true-breeding" Spalding. Something similar is how the Deleware breed of chicken came into being -- the originals were crosses of two different breeds (Barred Pylmoth Rock X New Hampshires, which were then selectively bred to breed true to type. Doing so with Spaldings would take longer, because Peafowl take longer to reach maturity, and because the genetic difference between Green and IB peafowl are greater than the genetic difference between two breeds of chicken.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011

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