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OK, this is what I THINK a "silver pied" bird is genetically:
Heterozygous for White
Homozygous for Pied
Homozygous for White-Eyed
From what I remember reading on breeders' sites and forums, when breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you will get some whites out of them (some places said half, which would fit my model above...but like I said, the information varies from place to place...and sometimes I see "Pied White-Eyed" which makes me think the bird is the same as Silver Pied, only it's heterozygous for Pied instead of homozygous, or maybe lacks a copy of the White gene...another reason I don't like coming up with new names for something that's really the result of more than one mutation).
In any case, it's an interaction of three genes that delete pigment -- and I prefer seeing the colors of the peafowl, rather than a white bird with random spots of color. So...I never really read further into any of the "white" genes (White, Pied, White-Eyed). And I may not have gotten it right about how it is put together genetically. All I know is that when I am ready for my own peafowl, I don't want any birds with white feathers (well....except for Black Shouldered Hens). But that's just my personal preference.
SP x SP= 1/4 white 1/2 SP 1/4 "dark pied"(homozygous pied/silver pied) is the usual answer. Same as for the 'regular pied'-no white eyes, the originals before silver pied came on the scene.
It's been said & implied for very long time that white and pied are alleles. Are you aware if this is true or false? Your genotype list above makes me wonder.
At the very least, everybody seems to agree: Pied x Pied, whether they be regular or silver pied gives the 1:4:1 results(phenotype at least..), also agrees on white x pied= 1:1 chick ratio, etc. Those seem to support them being alleles but does not rule it out either..? (but would seem incredible if agreement is so universal. surely not all of those whites were hom for pied.. even het would skew the ratio?)
Way back when I was shopping around for SP, talked to several breeders trying to figure out the possible genotype for silver pied(pied plus white eye was the basic answer I got) plus if they thought I would get silver pieds out of a SP male bred with my white eyed hens heterozygous and homozygous for white(several thought SP chicks would show up). So with that, decided to just get a SP male instead of getting a pair/trio as I had quite a lot of white eyed hens heterozygous and homozygous for white. Two seasons failed to give any SP chicks. Results were same for a new, unrelated SP male over hens with same genotypes. (eventually got a few silver pieds out of F1 hens from first cross bred with the second SP male)
There are some who suggest Whites from SP matings are genetically different from other Whites (ignoring color mutations for this discussion) as implied by sales adverts with prices for whites out of SP being different from 'regular whites' and also when I relayed my experience of two SP bred with my hens failing to produce any SP chicks- some responses I got were 'have to use white hens from SP matings'- never got an answer to *what* exactly the difference is, though... Other responses were that I did not get any because the chicks were not pure for white eye, but that's the problem- they have to be, if SP are pied, white eye and het white, then breeding a SP with my hens= all homozygous white eyes.. It would really explain so much if white and pied(silver pied?) are not alleles after all, but that's a bit troublesome if 'everybody' agrees on them being alleles and on pied breeding chick ratios. So I end up not being sure what to think, ha!
OK, I'm going to have a stab at the white genes...PLEASE correct my mistakes.
If a bird is IB split to White (no other mutation), then it looks basically like an IB with a little white on the throat, maybe some white wing feathers.
If a bird is homozygous for White, then it is solid white.
If a bird is IB split to Pied (no other mutation), then it looks a lot like an IB split to White.
If a bird is homozygous for Pied, then it is about 50-50 white and pigmented.
If you're saying that White and Pied are alleles, then perhaps the "loud pied" birds have one copy of White, and one copy of Pied (thus they don't have a normal copy of the gene that's present in regular IB). Because each gene seems to be able to change phenotype when heterozygous, perhaps when the two are together you get more pigment removed than if you had just one. I'm thinking that the two genes act as "erasers" and having one copy of each is like adding together the "erase marks" of each.
White-eyed is another "eraser" gene, and if it's had homozygously along with one copy of Pied and one copy of White, you have "almost complete erasing." If this is the case, then the "loudest" silver pieds would be:
Homozygous for White-Eye
Heterozygous for Pied
Heterozygous for White
If White and Pied are alleles, then it's impossible to be homozygous for Pied AND have the White gene -- because the two available slots for the White gene are occupied by the two copies of Pied.
The 1:2:1 ratio is classic Mendelian genetics, resulting from a single-trait hybrid cross (Ww X Ww = 25% WW, 50% Ww, 25% ww). If this pattern is what you get when crossing silver pied X silver pied, then "Silver Pied" must be a heterozygous phenotype (like Andalusian Blue in chickens). The difference is that instead of the "other" gene in the heterozygote being the "normal" version, it is another mutation. This would also explain why the whites out of Silver Pied are different from other whites -- the ones from Silver Pied are genetically White-Eyed Whites.
ETA -- If White and Pied are alleles, this could explain the different degrees of "pied" phenotypes. (Again, please correct me if you know what I say to be incorrect...I'm not really sure about how these work in peafowl, but am simply posting hypotheses based on genetic principles).
IB split Pied = IB with small amount of white markings
Homozygous Pied = about 50-50 white and IB in coloration
IB split White = IB with small amount of white markings
Homozygous White = solid white peafowl
If the above is correct, it would seem that White and Pied act as erasers, but White is a "bigger eraser" than Pied. If they are alleles, then a bird that has one copy of White and one copy of Pied will have more "erased" than a bird that has two copies of Pied, but less than a bird that has two copies of White, and thus you have "loud pied."
White-eyed is recessive, and needs to be carried homozygously (i.e., the bird has two copies of White-eyed to show the pattern). If both parents are homozygous for White-eyed, then so will all the offspring. In such a case, you can leave that gene off when calculating offspring, because they all will have it.
So Silver Pied is a loud-pied (one copy of White and one copy of Pied) with the addition of being homozygous for White-eyed. Breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you'd get:
25% White/White (two copies of White-eyed, two copies of White) White-eyed (the "Whites" out of "Silver Pied", thus "White-eyed Whites")
50% White/Pied (one copy White, one copy Pied, aka "loud pied) White-eyed (which all together = "Silver Pied")
25% Pied/Pied (two copies of Pied, aka "dark pied") White-eyed (all together = "Pied White-eyed")
What I'd need to learn is the difference in appearance between birds. I'm thinking that, in terms of least-white to most-white, they go: IB split Pied, IB split White, Dark Pied (homozygous Pied), Loud Pied (one copy White, one copy Pied), White (two copies White). Then adding the White-eyed gene (which needs two copies to show) to the Loud Pied gives Silver Pied -- the "whitest" except for White. I'd need to see what the White-eyed gene does to each of the steps along the way to be sure. According to my hypothesis, these are the ways genetically to get a bird "with white spotting somewhere" (not including the "turning-white" gene).
I can think of a gene interaction in cockatiels that provides a parallel. One difference is that these genes are on the Z chromosome, so only males can have both genes. The mutations in question are Lutino (all melanin "erased") and Australian Platinum (all melanin "diluted"), and they are alleles (i.e., they occupy the same "slot" on the chromosome). Males need two copies of either mutation to show, because they have two Z chromosomes. If you cross a Lutino with an Australian Platinum, the male offspring are what's called "Platino." One Z chromosome has Lutino, the other has Platinum, and because they are alleles, there is no "normal" version to dominate either. "Platino" cockatiels are lighter than Australian Platinum, but not as light as Lutino. I'm thinking that, similarly, "White/Pied" peafowl have more white than "Pied/Pied" but less than "White/White."
I think I'd rather stick to the ones with no white.....although I think that a Spaulding Bronze Blackshoulder White-Eye (with no Pied or White genes) would be rather stunning.
OK, this is what I THINK a "silver pied" bird is genetically:
Heterozygous for White
Homozygous for Pied
Homozygous for White-Eyed
From what I remember reading on breeders' sites and forums, when breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you will get some whites out of them (some places said half, which would fit my model above...but like I said, the information varies from place to place...and sometimes I see "Pied White-Eyed" which makes me think the bird is the same as Silver Pied, only it's heterozygous for Pied instead of homozygous, or maybe lacks a copy of the White gene...another reason I don't like coming up with new names for something that's really the result of more than one mutation).
In any case, it's an interaction of three genes that delete pigment -- and I prefer seeing the colors of the peafowl, rather than a white bird with random spots of color. So...I never really read further into any of the "white" genes (White, Pied, White-Eyed). And I may not have gotten it right about how it is put together genetically. All I know is that when I am ready for my own peafowl, I don't want any birds with white feathers (well....except for Black Shouldered Hens). But that's just my personal preference.
SP x SP= 1/4 white 1/2 SP 1/4 "dark pied"(homozygous pied/silver pied) is the usual answer. Same as for the 'regular pied'-no white eyes, the originals before silver pied came on the scene.
It's been said & implied for very long time that white and pied are alleles. Are you aware if this is true or false? Your genotype list above makes me wonder.
Way back when I was shopping around for SP, talked to several breeders trying to figure out the possible genotype for silver pied(pied plus white eye was the basic answer I got) plus if they thought I would get silver pieds out of a SP male bred with my white eyed hens heterozygous and homozygous for white(several thought SP chicks would show up). So with that, decided to just get a SP male instead of getting a pair/trio as I had quite a lot of white eyed hens heterozygous and homozygous for white. Two seasons failed to give any SP chicks. Results were same for a new, unrelated SP male over hens with same genotypes. (eventually got a few silver pieds out of F1 hens from first cross bred with the second SP male)
There are some who suggest Whites from SP matings are genetically different from other Whites (ignoring color mutations for this discussion) as implied by sales adverts with prices for whites out of SP being different from 'regular whites' and also when I relayed my experience of two SP bred with my hens failing to produce any SP chicks- some responses I got were 'have to use white hens from SP matings'- never got an answer to *what* exactly the difference is, though... Other responses were that I did not get any because the chicks were not pure for white eye, but that's the problem- they have to be, if SP are pied, white eye and het white, then breeding a SP with my hens= all homozygous white eyes.. It would really explain so much if white and pied(silver pied?) are not alleles after all, but that's a bit troublesome if 'everybody' agrees on them being alleles and on pied breeding chick ratios. So I end up not being sure what to think, ha!
OK, I'm going to have a stab at the white genes...PLEASE correct my mistakes.
If a bird is IB split to White (no other mutation), then it looks basically like an IB with a little white on the throat, maybe some white wing feathers.
If a bird is homozygous for White, then it is solid white.
If a bird is IB split to Pied (no other mutation), then it looks a lot like an IB split to White.
If a bird is homozygous for Pied, then it is about 50-50 white and pigmented.
If you're saying that White and Pied are alleles, then perhaps the "loud pied" birds have one copy of White, and one copy of Pied (thus they don't have a normal copy of the gene that's present in regular IB). Because each gene seems to be able to change phenotype when heterozygous, perhaps when the two are together you get more pigment removed than if you had just one. I'm thinking that the two genes act as "erasers" and having one copy of each is like adding together the "erase marks" of each.
White-eyed is another "eraser" gene, and if it's had homozygously along with one copy of Pied and one copy of White, you have "almost complete erasing." If this is the case, then the "loudest" silver pieds would be:
Homozygous for White-Eye
Heterozygous for Pied
Heterozygous for White
If White and Pied are alleles, then it's impossible to be homozygous for Pied AND have the White gene -- because the two available slots for the White gene are occupied by the two copies of Pied.
The 1:2:1 ratio is classic Mendelian genetics, resulting from a single-trait hybrid cross (Ww X Ww = 25% WW, 50% Ww, 25% ww). If this pattern is what you get when crossing silver pied X silver pied, then "Silver Pied" must be a heterozygous phenotype (like Andalusian Blue in chickens). The difference is that instead of the "other" gene in the heterozygote being the "normal" version, it is another mutation. This would also explain why the whites out of Silver Pied are different from other whites -- the ones from Silver Pied are genetically White-Eyed Whites.
ETA -- If White and Pied are alleles, this could explain the different degrees of "pied" phenotypes. (Again, please correct me if you know what I say to be incorrect...I'm not really sure about how these work in peafowl, but am simply posting hypotheses based on genetic principles).
IB split Pied = IB with small amount of white markings
Homozygous Pied = about 50-50 white and IB in coloration
IB split White = IB with small amount of white markings
Homozygous White = solid white peafowl
If the above is correct, it would seem that White and Pied act as erasers, but White is a "bigger eraser" than Pied. If they are alleles, then a bird that has one copy of White and one copy of Pied will have more "erased" than a bird that has two copies of Pied, but less than a bird that has two copies of White, and thus you have "loud pied."
White-eyed is recessive, and needs to be carried homozygously (i.e., the bird has two copies of White-eyed to show the pattern). If both parents are homozygous for White-eyed, then so will all the offspring. In such a case, you can leave that gene off when calculating offspring, because they all will have it.
So Silver Pied is a loud-pied (one copy of White and one copy of Pied) with the addition of being homozygous for White-eyed. Breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you'd get:
25% White/White (two copies of White-eyed, two copies of White) White-eyed (the "Whites" out of "Silver Pied", thus "White-eyed Whites")
50% White/Pied (one copy White, one copy Pied, aka "loud pied) White-eyed (which all together = "Silver Pied")
25% Pied/Pied (two copies of Pied, aka "dark pied") White-eyed (all together = "Pied White-eyed")
What I'd need to learn is the difference in appearance between birds. I'm thinking that, in terms of least-white to most-white, they go: IB split Pied, IB split White, Dark Pied (homozygous Pied), Loud Pied (one copy White, one copy Pied), White (two copies White). Then adding the White-eyed gene (which needs two copies to show) to the Loud Pied gives Silver Pied -- the "whitest" except for White. I'd need to see what the White-eyed gene does to each of the steps along the way to be sure. According to my hypothesis, these are the ways genetically to get a bird "with white spotting somewhere" (not including the "turning-white" gene).
I can think of a gene interaction in cockatiels that provides a parallel. One difference is that these genes are on the Z chromosome, so only males can have both genes. The mutations in question are Lutino (all melanin "erased") and Australian Platinum (all melanin "diluted"), and they are alleles (i.e., they occupy the same "slot" on the chromosome). Males need two copies of either mutation to show, because they have two Z chromosomes. If you cross a Lutino with an Australian Platinum, the male offspring are what's called "Platino." One Z chromosome has Lutino, the other has Platinum, and because they are alleles, there is no "normal" version to dominate either. "Platino" cockatiels are lighter than Australian Platinum, but not as light as Lutino. I'm thinking that, similarly, "White/Pied" peafowl have more white than "Pied/Pied" but less than "White/White."
I think I'd rather stick to the ones with no white.....although I think that a Spaulding Bronze Blackshoulder White-Eye (with no Pied or White genes) would be rather stunning.
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