Integration and bullies

[Sammster]

I'm weeks into integrating, and not making enough progress. Fortunately my set-up allows me to separate the pullets from the hens when I'm not actively watching.
I have 8 RIR hens and 4 pullets of less-aggressive breeds.

Two of my hens (bullies) are now sporting peepers. They seem to be adjusting, but I am watching closely, to make sure they are able to feed well enough. I've added a bowl of feed and a bowl of water to hopefully make it easier for them.

Yesterday, the underdog of my hens attacked one of the pullets. She hurt the pullet enough that she limped for the rest of the day, but seems ok this morning (I take that back. She's still limping). I grabbed the offender and put her in "bully jail" until bed time. But, I haven't put peepers on her, yet. Obviously, I can't have her injuring the pullets, but this hen is afraid of her own shadow. I'm concerned that peepers could be traumatic for her. Who knows, maybe they'll actually help her from being so skittish.

Thoughts?

ETA: I tried peepers on my underdog/bully - twice. She can get them off

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

How big is your set up? Are there places the young ones can get away from the older ones? Generally the younger ones need to stay 5-10 feet away or risk being pecked. Smaller set ups can make it difficult to integrate.

 

[Sammster]

How big is your set up? Are there places the young ones can get away from the older ones? Generally the younger ones need to stay 5-10 feet away or risk being pecked. Smaller set ups can make it difficult to integrate.

I have a 10x10 pen connected to a 10x5 pen - with a gate in between. At the time of each incident, the gate between the pens was open - as was the gate to the yard. Most of the hens were free-ranging and the pullets were cautiously investigating the yard at the entrance to the pen. Most of the hens behaved. They had been in their side-by-side pens about 3 weeks.
I noticed a "prey" stance on a couple of the hens, and watched closely - but I looked away for a minute and :bam:
I was there, though, and grabbed the offenders and put them in a mini-coop. When the bullies didnt change their behavior after a couple days, they got peepers. No more incidents from those two.
But, then the underdog-hen attacked and really hurt one of the pullets (leg or foot. I think foot). I checked the pullet over and don't see any lacerations, but a bit of swelling. So honestly - she may have hurt herself trying to escape the bully. She is still limping, and sometimes standing on one foot. She can still jump up on her roosting bar.
There are a couple places to duck in the pens, but the pullets are pretty big, so most anywhere they can fit, the bully can, too. I have NOT opened the two pens to each other without opening the gate to the yard - where most of the hens wanted to be.
The pullets now seem afraid to go into the yard if the hens are free-ranging. I have given them some alone time in the yard. I don't want them afraid of the yard. They stick pretty close to then pen, though.
The pullets will walk right past my dogs, so they aren't completely traumatized.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

What breeds are your hens? I have on occasion seen a hen target the chicks here, but most instances the older hens do not care.

Are your hens older than a year? How old are the young ones? If they are nearly adult size than that may be why you are seeing aggression. I integrate generally when they are smaller, and are not a threat.

Older chicks could be viewed as a threat and you may see more aggression as the older birds do not wish to lose their territory.

 

[Sammster]

What breeds are your hens? I have on occasion seen a hen target the chicks here, but most instances the older hens do not care.

Are your hens older than a year? How old are the young ones? If they are nearly adult size than that may be why you are seeing aggression. I integrate generally when they are smaller, and are not a threat.

Older chicks could be viewed as a threat and you may see more aggression as the older birds do not wish to lose their territory.

Ahh...

The hens are 2 and 3 years old. All Rhode Island Red's. The pullets are 13 weeks and are supposed to be: 2 Mystic Marans, 1 Olive egger, 1 Sapphire Sky. All less aggressive birds than RIRs. Which is why I was taking my time integrating. Doing the "see, but don't touch" method, slowly.

The pullets started using the side by side pen during the daytime at probably 8 or 9 weeks. It was still cold (Michigan) at night, so they came in to their brooding box at night. They were put out full-time a few weeks ago. I'm putting them in the original, pre-fab coop, at night - after the hens retire to the converted shed-coop.

The 5x10 pen was added to the original 10x10 this spring, specifically for the addition of the pullets.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

Sounds like you are doing everything you can. You may just need to keep up supervised mingling. Too bad the one can get the peepers off.

 

[Mrs. K]

This is going to sound crazy - but it has worked for me. This is about territory and territorial rights. So flip the birds, put the big girls where the little girls are and vice versa.

The thing is, that being side by side does not give territorial rights. The little chicks are pretty convinced that even with the gate open, they should not be there, and the old girls are positive this must be reinforced.

Flip them, feed along the fence. Wait a day or two. Let the littles out into the yard with ONE of the big girls. Might be a skirmish or two, but usually one bird will get tired of chasing all of the littles. Do this one to two days. Then add another big one back into their original coop and run, with the littles and the other one big girl. Wait for that to settle - a day or two.

Then try letting everyone out into the yard and I think it will mostly work. Personally, I would keep adding the peepers if needed to any aggressive chicken.

Mrs K

 

[Sammster]

This is going to sound crazy - but it has worked for me. This is about territory and territorial rights. So flip the birds, put the big girls where the little girls are and vice versa.

The thing is, that being side by side does not give territorial rights. The little chicks are pretty convinced that even with the gate open, they should not be there, and the old girls are positive this must be reinforced.

Flip them, feed along the fence. Wait a day or two. Let the littles out into the yard with ONE of the big girls. Might be a skirmish or two, but usually one bird will get tired of chasing all of the littles. Do this one to two days. Then add another big one back into their original coop and run, with the littles and the other one big girl. Wait for that to settle - a day or two.

Then try letting everyone out into the yard and I think it will mostly work. Personally, I would keep adding the peepers if needed to any aggressive chicken.

Mrs K

Thank you. I will give that a try.
I've tried the peepers on the 3rd bully, twice. I don't know if it's because her comb extends down to her beak, but she's gotten them off within a few minutes, each time. I have a different type of peepers that might work, but they look so big. I'll take a picture and share, next time I go out. I kind if wonder if they're for a different bird species.

 

[aart]

I have a 10x10 pen connected to a 10x5 pen

Do each of these pens have a coop they sleep in at night?

 

[Sammster]

Sort of. After the hens go to roost at night, I take the pullets through the original pen, to the small coop that is attached. They are in separate coops. Let me see if I have a picture...

Original pen and attached coop

Big coop and pen extention added to the front of original set-up

We have a man who's going to add a metal roof over the original set-up and pen extention. We have a temporary roof over the pen extention, currently.
P.S. the back of the large coop has more ventilation. And the sheet you see is covering the mini (hospital) coop that also serves as a bird-jail for bullies. I threw that sheet on there for shade.