Integration Inquiry

[chooks4life]

Chooks,
I have decided you are my poultry guru.!

LOL
But, seriously, everything you've told me has made complete sense. It especially makes sense because I used to train horses and the exact same approach applies to them. It is an animal with a lot more intelligence and size, but I agree with everything you have told me. I am ecstatic that you like to talk a lot, too, because so do I. lol

lol, thanks, I'm glad to be able to help. Chooks are great little livestock, not nearly as stupid as the stereotype, so training them and other poultry is certainly doable to some extent, and I'd bet the furthest reaches of that extent actually depend on the person, not the animal.

I wouldn't recommend it for the worst, violent behaviors just because I found training them out of acting on it doesn't stop them passing on the tendency to violence for another few generations, so it's easier, quicker and safer to cull out... If you have the patience, resources, inclination and ability to deal with killers then best wishes with that... But for all other things, training is good. Every poultry keeper would benefit from training them to come on command, it's simple and easy. Once they know, it needs some semi-regular reinforcement but if you love animals you'll be doing that automatically.

I train them to come to vocal command for food, and every now and then I bring them treats they love like tabasco sauce or cayenne and bread and maybe yoghurt to bind it together, to reinforce their training as well as treat any parasite issues (this is one of my preferred natural wormers because I'm a practitioner of natural therapies, not that I'd refuse to use unnatural ones if it was necessary, which it hasn't been thus far). I give them that before the full moon when the worms are moving into the intestinal tract to breed, and I've never had a parasite issue so it must work, lol. Also, parasites don't build immunity to natural wormers, which is a big bonus. The same is true for natural antivirals, antibiotics, antibacterials, etc, natural ones don't allow immunity to develop against them, and they don't harm the animals.

Chooks and turkeys love hot stuff and it helps them a lot in many ways, with circulation and disease/parasite prevention and management. Bad circulation is pretty common in many turkeys and chickens. I give them many hot things on a regular basis and they thrive on it. They love raw onion, garlic, peppers/chillies, black pepper, mustard, anything hot really. I bring them treats at random times, so they don't just learn to come for standard meal times. Otherwise you can get some who ignore you because they know it's not dinnertime and they're not hungry yet, lol.

The two main health problems I found with turkeys were weakness to tuberculosis and blackhead, but both were eliminated within a few generations. But I used natural treatments for this, not artificial ones to do their immune systems' work for them, which I think made a big difference because otherwise you end up treating every new generation just like the previous, without them developing their own immunity. Supporting the immune system makes more sense than taking over its job, to me, but this does involve breeding for strength and not breeding on the weakest. Doesn't mean they can't make good pets or stock for someone who doesn't care about that, but if they're weak they're not the best breeding stock obviously.

Hard boiled egg with raw onion or dandelion, the latter preferably, will prevent deaths to TB, and for Blackhead, you just give them a cup of raw cow's milk mixed with a teaspoon of honey. You let it sit for a few hours, scrape the fat off the top, and show it to them, and very few need encouragement to drink it, most dive straight in. With the rest I dip the tip of their beak in it and off they go, lol. It saves almost all cases if you give it to them by the time they're already fasting by choice, by which point they're usually lying down, and the poop is bright yellow and liquid. If you give it earlier it can prolong the sickness and they may not respond when it's the right time for it. How quickly they reach the 'right time' can be a matter of days or weeks depending on the individual.

Because it afflicts the liver, the fasting is important as it helps restrict the levels of damage being done. Like with TB, the dandelion (or raw onion if you use that instead) helps clean and protect the liver and blood which is often a lifesaver. Almost all diseases that kill domestic poultry afflict the liver as a main symptom; digestive system disease (specifically the liver) is the main killer of poultry, so anything that supports the liver is important, and avoiding things that burden or harm the liver also important.

Alternatives include antibiotics, but the death rate is still high on average from what I've read, not that I am an expert because I don't use them... But, if you prefer conventional therapy, casportpony is one user who will be able to help you. She's had issues for years with BH in her turkeys and peafowl and while she doesn't approve of my natural therapies, she's very helpful to newbies, and I reckon whatever works for you and what you're comfortable with is the right treatment. Even if we have different preferences for therapies, I hope we can be accepting of one anothers' choice. Quite a few people aren't okay with natural therapies, but I don't have any problems with your preferences either way; as long as it works, what's the problem, is my motto.

In the past I have used chemical wormers on animals, never the poultry though, and as I learned more I stopped using them on the cats, dogs etc. As long as the therapy works well enough to keep them healthy, that's what's correct to use, and if it's also non harmful, I'm very keen, lol. But while I learned I used chemicals on most animals just to be sure.

If you want information on antibiotics, chemical wormers, etc, you can find casportpony and ask her using the sites' search function. It's often easier for newbies to poultry-keeping to use chemicals rather than try natural alternatives as there's a little more homework and time involved in using herbs.

In a few generations of treating BH naturally, the newest generations were immune to it. TB also became a non-issue after a couple of generations being fed hardboiled egg for their first few weeks.

There's reason to believe cayenne pepper stops the completion of the lifecycle of Blackhead, as it burns the shells off the oocysts that carry it into the body. For this to work you'd need a sprinkle of cayenne in their food at least once a week, most likely right after a rain or when the ground is wet as the worms that carry BH come up to the surface after that; they can catch it from one another though, but it's not anywhere near as common as from eating earthworms. My chooks and turkeys always refused to eat earthworms and I didn't know why for years, lol...

I use raw fresh garlic as coccidiosis prevention for chooks and turkeys, and it also works on other species, from hatching/ weaning onwards. I've heard it works as cure too, even in advanced cases, but never had a single case of clinical cocci so wouldn't know, LOL!

Almost nobody is willing to try it, even when their conventional treatments have already failed and the animals are showing advanced illness, but that's understandable, raw garlic as medicine sounds like "woo-woo" (as they say around here), unless you've read up on what garlic does as a medicine. I've never lost a single bird to cocci, though, so even if you use conventional treatments and they get sick, garlic may save them.

I'm thinking I may get over my fear of the turkeys if I handle them a lot speak sweet and all that. I have a very hard time being firm with such small delicate animals and I think that it will help me build up a friendly flock. Using a different tone of voice for each area of care is a great idea for tone training, I did the same with my horse training. Obviously, everything I learned and used on the horses will probably work out excellent if applied on a smaller scale to my chickens and turkeys and it will give me the confidence to feed and care for them all by myself. Consistency works well on everything from ids to animals and I should have thought more about that, but, like I said, these are my first flocks.
Now, when I think of my new venture in poultry I am even more excited because I have you to ask advice about when I'm confused and the confidence it will all help build will aid me in my endeavor to eventually breed my own line of show quality chickens. I just can't wait.! lol

I don't know everything, that's for sure, but I will share what I know. And some theories too, got lots of those, haha! I agree with your stance on it, this should work out. Don't underestimate their intelligence or you may find yourself being outwitted by chickens, lol! I am embarrassed to say it's happened to me before.

I am also considering going into rabbits for meat and show. One of my best friends was a breeder of show quality meat breed rabbits and I have him right next door so he won't be too far and will be helping choosing/raising the initial breeding stock. My husband also knows a decent amount about them also and he won't desert me. lol

Sounds good, I'm also keen on rabbits but they're illegal in my state. Which is a bit silly, desexed rabbits should at least be allowed as pets...

My sons girlfriend and I will be the ones taming everything down so it's easier to handle for health checks, etc However, I have made it abundantly clear that, come time to butcher my lovelies I will be gone for as long as it takes to kill them but I will be back in time to cut and wrap. I just don't want to see them die...I mean, I know what we're raising them for and all that...still. Call me a softy or a wimp, but, I believe my part will be the overall care and assurance that they are all raised gently, lovingly and with their health the utmost important thing. That being said, it will all work out in the end.

Yeah, I'm not keen on culling either, but it does have to be done... Time makes it easier. It also helps with bad genetics when you see how the offspring can suffer, it makes it easier to cull out a bad trait. At least if you don't want to do it yourself you can get others to, or sell them on, or give them away, either to homes that will keep or cull. There will always be those random few who aren't worth keeping but aren't requiring culling either, who should go as pets. I once sold a nice little mongrel hen, who I liked, because I found she carried genes for leukosis. After watching some of her grand-offspring suffer and die from it, I traced it back to her and a male I had, and both had to go. She went to a nice place where she is rearing turkey poults as she is a great mother. He wasn't so lucky, lol, we ate him, but he wasn't anything too special either in character or genetics so it was ok.

Oohhh, I wanted to tell you I got 2 books on raising chickens from my son for Mother's Day - Raising Chickens for Dummies and Storey's Guide to Raising Poultry, both of which were on my wish list ( lol and the only 2 he could find that weren't online). I was wondering what you thought of his/my choices as my first 2 reference books. I plan to order a couple books by Gail Damerow in the near future as I've been told she has very informative books that are easy to relate to.

About reference books, my only solid thoughts on them are to get as many as you can and learn from all of them but accept none of them as being completely correct. So far, out of all the extremely well educated people I have learned from, not one was correct 100% of the time. You can (and ideally should) learn from them all and try to keep a flexible mind about what a proven and true fact is, because even when we know a subject intimately there are always new discoveries, new facts, new angles to perceive it from. Some well-regarded books are peddling a few non-truths, basically all of them without malicious intentions, but there's so much to learn it's inevitable there will be incorrect information out there.

Also, just because it was true for most, doesn't mean it will be true for you or your animals, so it pays to keep an open mind. I hope you retain your ability to question and think outside the box. Some people stop questioning and believe whatever is written but we don't yet have the full picture, nobody knows it all. I've had so many 'rare' or 'fluke' experiences that I'm not sure how many people or animals 'normal' actually applies to. I would guess with horses you have quite some experience on how much information and response is very individual and not generic.

That's it for the moment. lol The next time I have a question/idea I will absolutely be talking to you. Again, I have to say I'm very happy to have you to bounce things off as EVERYBODY in my household is at the end of their rope about me talking about chickens. lol I really think my husband is just humoring me at this point and he definitely has the patience of a saint when I get obsessed over something. LOL

Your Friend,
Jodi

It's funny how chickens can provoke such a keen interest in people, but they sure do. I have also done my share of talking people's ears off about poultry. So have many others, it's probably why this site exists.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

I will also add: if your planned cages for the turkeys don't have grass in them, or if they're not large enough to permanently retain grass, it may be a great idea to grow sprouts for them. It can be oats or grains, millet, whatever, but turkeys are primarily green feeders and the chlorophyll in grass is one of the biggest things in helping their health, as with chickens it makes a visible difference, and you will also taste it in their flesh, it will be clean and fresh unlike birds who never had grass.

In Australia many people grow their own fodder, for all livestock, it's only gotten rave reviews. They set up trays of seeds, let them sprout and let them reach a few inches or feet in height and give them to the pigs, cattle, sheep, poultry, whatever. I don't have the actual stats on hand but a few kilos of seeds can grow tonnes of fodder in a matter of days with minimal input. Establishing the systems are the most expensive part and the savings start thereafter, and it's a great cost effective tool for meat-producers, who have been utilizing it with great success. Some use trailers with lights and water systems and just take out trays of sprouts daily, it's rapid.

Once a seed has sprouted, its total bioavailability soars and it's far more nutritious than feeding the unsprouted seed, of which a significant percentage goes to waste. The more efficient their intake is, the less they need to eat and the healthier they are. It can be incredibly cost-effective and will drive down the total cost of feeding them. The same thing may work for rabbits too if you want to feed them raw fresh greens.

Turkeys have been estimated as eating a diet of up to 80% green feed when able, and this is certainly true in my experience. During a drought, though I still had green pasture, one of my turkey hens abandoned me for a greener neighbor's place, lol!

Unpasteurized apple cider vinegar with the 'mother' in it is one of the easiest ways to also make them more healthy and feed efficient. Studies on chickens show it lengthens the cilia in their guts by two and a half times, a lifelong benefit, which makes them more feed efficient and less prone to disease. It also does wonders for their circulation which needless to say does wonders for their general health.

Another great thing to do is soak their grains. I do this for my poultry and they eat less and are in vibrant health, two of the most common and verifiable claims people who soak their grains will make. Some people ferment the grains, which also works, but overnight soaking does too. The poultry will come to prefer it this way, though they may initially be a little surprised at them... Soon enough they will be offended at offerings of dry grains and seeds, lol.

Best wishes.

 

[Laughing Raven]

Hello Chooks,

Speaking in great detail is in no way what I see as long-winded. LOL In my opinion, it's a huge bonus because I hate asking a question and getting a few words as an answer with absolutely no explanation as to why they feel/think the way they do or why the answer is what it is, Not telling a person whether the question answered is from experience or from some obsolete passage in a book that may be completely outdated. It may make sense to them for whatever reason, but, with no reference it won't make sense to anyone.
Just for the record, I will absolutely be following your advice in the answer to my previous post. I will be going the holistic/ natural route as far as medical care and their general health of my flock. I've already got several areas where I am going to grow little yards of healthy greens for them that we can move the chicken tractor to on a rotational basis. I totally believe that a happy, healthy, well cared for animal produces the most healthy meat/eggs/etc. Of course, they will also receive the best goodies I can save from the food scraps we eat. I'm diabetic so we eat very healthy here which means any and all scraps will come from high quality produce, etc.

With regard to believing everything I read or am told, lol I am a die hard researcher and question pretty much everything I read or am told just to prove it's true. Fortunately, I have you to bounce ideas off and it sounds like you wouldn't take any offense to my also looking up other peoples opinions on what I read.

I am going to use the treats and tone method to let my poultry know whats going on/what I expect from them as far as behavior and I love animals so much that all they will ever get is a gentle, quiet and loving touch. They're going to be spoiled with healthy goodies and lots of attention too. lol

I'm planning to use the apple cider vinegar thing only because it seems like every single place I've gone and researched chickens in particular, they tout the benefits of ACV and I also have a place to get a recipe for the 'mother'. In fact, anything and everything I can find that will benefit my Ckickies will be employed to keep them naturally healthy and happy. For instance, I will be growing patches of greens for them to enjoy in winter.

The bunnies will get the same treatment as the Chickies will. I'm still mulling over the acquisition of rabbits, but I continue to do as much research on them as I can. I do have a lucky card though. One of my best friends used to raise rabbits for meat and show and he will be an immense help when the time comes to find pedigreed stock to show and raise the young of for meat. He and I also discussed the idea of raising mini rabbits to sell as pets since they sell for ridiculous prices around here. lol

It's so nice to have someone around to talk to about all this and appears to have the right idea about raising animals. And someone who actually take the time to explain their theories on certiqan subjects unlike other people who say a few words and expect one to see it as the only way to do something without any sort of explanation as to why it's the right/only way to do whatever it is that's asked of them.

So, once again I would like to let you know I appreciate your replies to the Nth degree and am happy we seem to get along so well and agree on what you have to say and the explanations you have to give.

Hope all is well with you. I'm still nursing a broken foot. My doc says I should be able to get out of the cast by the 13th of next month and I really hope I am because I desperately want to get outside and work on my gardens, the coop and my yard, but, I just can't at the moment. Not whining, just frustrated from being immobile. One good thing though, I have the time to sit on the computer and do research and read my new books and glean what I want to use from them. lol

You have a wonderful day/night and take good care of yourself. I'm glad you are such an excellent source of information. Thanks again and I do honestly appreciate all of your help.

Sincerely,
Jodi

 

[chooks4life]

Hello Chooks,

Speaking in great detail is in no way what I see as long-winded. LOL In my opinion, it's a huge bonus because I hate asking a question and getting a few words as an answer with absolutely no explanation as to why they feel/think the way they do or why the answer is what it is, Not telling a person whether the question answered is from experience or from some obsolete passage in a book that may be completely outdated. It may make sense to them for whatever reason, but, with no reference it won't make sense to anyone.

Completely agree with that.

Just for the record, I will absolutely be following your advice in the answer to my previous post. I will be going the holistic/ natural route as far as medical care and their general health of my flock. I've already got several areas where I am going to grow little yards of healthy greens for them that we can move the chicken tractor to on a rotational basis. I totally believe that a happy, healthy, well cared for animal produces the most healthy meat/eggs/etc. Of course, they will also receive the best goodies I can save from the food scraps we eat. I'm diabetic so we eat very healthy here which means any and all scraps will come from high quality produce, etc.

Sounds great!

With regard to believing everything I read or am told, lol I am a die hard researcher and question pretty much everything I read or am told just to prove it's true. Fortunately, I have you to bounce ideas off and it sounds like you wouldn't take any offense to my also looking up other peoples opinions on what I read.

Not at all, it's the wisest thing to do. I'm still very much a learner myself. Everyone has to find what's true to them and what works for them.

I have some concerns about differences in biology in different countries, like local differences in viruses and bacteria and nutrition and genetics, as it means what works for me may not work for others across the globe. There's also big differences in strains of plants, some modern garlic's not so useful compared to the ancient strains which haven't been bred to live under artificial conditions i.e. synthetic or altered fertilizers.

I am going to use the treats and tone method to let my poultry know whats going on/what I expect from them as far as behavior and I love animals so much that all they will ever get is a gentle, quiet and loving touch. They're going to be spoiled with healthy goodies and lots of attention too. lol

I'm planning to use the apple cider vinegar thing only because it seems like every single place I've gone and researched chickens in particular, they tout the benefits of ACV and I also have a place to get a recipe for the 'mother'. In fact, anything and everything I can find that will benefit my Ckickies will be employed to keep them naturally healthy and happy. For instance, I will be growing patches of greens for them to enjoy in winter.

About ACV, someone else asked in another thread about it and I provided some basic info, there is much more info getting around the internet and hardcopy publications on ACV including its uses for diabetics. Here's some of the info I posted there:

Many people use Braggs' but I prefer Melrose of other brands, for some reason Braggs' does not work like it should, in my experience. I expect that since it's imported it was irradiated and thus, regardless of what the label claims about it being unpasteurized, it has effectively been pasteurized. Local is better if you can get it. This may not apply to the US if Braggs' is local to it, lol, I'm not sure what country it hails from.

In studies ACV's been proven to permanently elongate the cilia in the digestive system of chickens, so they are both more feed efficient and less prone to some diseases. It improves their ability to digest and their general gut function. It's great for cutting through buildups of overprocessed oils or cooked fats which the body's own enzymes struggle to cope with, which is especially important for birds who do not free range and whose sole staple is pellets or crumble.

It's also great for detoxing, especially heavy metals, as the pectin in apples is one of the few things to remove aluminum, which otherwise can accumulate for decades without lessening. Aluminum buildup causes some seriously devastating diseases, which more often descend onto the next generation so healthy looking people can produce only severely damaged offspring which can be traceable back to exposure in the parent's youth to excess aluminum. It's used in Europe to keep drinking water clear, I'm not sure what other countries use it.

AVC also helps alkalize them, so basically lessening the likelihood of acidosis and its many related diseases.

It helps with the cardiovascular system, helping keep capillaries supple and flexible, and helps with removing plaque buildup in arteries. It's very beneficial for the liver as well.

It is also high in potassium, which can help with many things, and if you've ever received radiation exposure it will help with that... But you will feel nauseous as your body processes it.

One way to tamper with genetic transference from parent to offspring is to induce hypokalemia in one parent, but it has many more effects than that, just like any vitamin. Lack of certain vitamins and minerals can effectively phenotypically 'blank' one parent out of the equation so you get what appear to be carbon copy offspring of the one parent with sufficient nutrition.

There is evidence to suggest the AVC in water helps prevent spread of diseases via drinking sources. Some people use ACV to help ferment their grains/seeds for their animals.

The bunnies will get the same treatment as the Chickies will. I'm still mulling over the acquisition of rabbits, but I continue to do as much research on them as I can. I do have a lucky card though. One of my best friends used to raise rabbits for meat and show and he will be an immense help when the time comes to find pedigreed stock to show and raise the young of for meat. He and I also discussed the idea of raising mini rabbits to sell as pets since they sell for ridiculous prices around here. lol

Best wishes with that. I have owned rabbits before but not for years, but they are good little pets.

It's so nice to have someone around to talk to about all this and appears to have the right idea about raising animals. And someone who actually take the time to explain their theories on certiqan subjects unlike other people who say a few words and expect one to see it as the only way to do something without any sort of explanation as to why it's the right/only way to do whatever it is that's asked of them.

So, once again I would like to let you know I appreciate your replies to the Nth degree and am happy we seem to get along so well and agree on what you have to say and the explanations you have to give.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Hope all is well with you. I'm still nursing a broken foot. My doc says I should be able to get out of the cast by the 13th of next month and I really hope I am because I desperately want to get outside and work on my gardens, the coop and my yard, but, I just can't at the moment. Not whining, just frustrated from being immobile. One good thing though, I have the time to sit on the computer and do research and read my new books and glean what I want to use from them. lol

Ah, sorry to hear it. I've got health problems too, have had for most of my life, it's one of the reasons why I've taken the time to study and apply natural alternatives, though I'm not an expert by any means... You do learn to look at the bright side.

Some people have said to me before, "look at the people shopping at organic markets, they look terrible, I'll never shop there!" I point out to them that they got into that state eating 'normally' and now they're forced to start eating better, they didn't start out shopping organic and then end up looking so unwell. At least organics are getting cheaper and cheaper as more and more people get into it and support it. While health issues aren't the most fun, I can think of many things I'd prefer my own health problems over, lol! Pros and cons to everything.

You have a wonderful day/night and take good care of yourself. I'm glad you are such an excellent source of information. Thanks again and I do honestly appreciate all of your help.

Sincerely,
Jodi

You too and you're welcome. Best wishes with your flock.

 

[Laughing Raven]

Chooks,

Absolutely agree with you on there being things out there worse than health issues. For me, I'm glad my diabetes hasn't taken a limb or my eye sight. I work hard to stay as healthy as I can and am in the process of getting in better shape (which is working out great so far lol) to help alleviate the pressure on my joints and help reduce the pain from degenerative joint disease and arthritis in in my back. The chickens and turkeys I am getting will also be my therapy animals to give me more of a reason to keep busy/moving and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna love it, well, maybe not the butchering part, lol and my level of determination often far exceeds my pain level.

Yes, pain is a daily issue with me but after 30 years of it, I can tell myself it's all just mind over matter. lol As long as I make myself not mind then, usually, it doesn't mater enough to impede my daily work load.

Anyway, I think I'm going to look into the ACV thing to help with my diabetes. I've been trying to find all sorts of things to make keeping my glucose levels at a much more manageable level since I already eat correctly. Perhaps the chickens and I can share even more in common.! LOL

I'm finding the upside with being forced to stay down is being able to do a lot of research. One of the things I found that I wanted to share with you is the use of coffee chaff as floor bedding in a chicken coop. You can get it at a coffee roaster as a by product of the roasting process. It was said to be very absorbent, cuts down the smell in the coop and is a soft place for the heavy large fowl to land on, saving their feet from sores/bumblefoot. I'm getting a list together of our local roasters to see if I can get their chaff because they usually just throw it away I'm going to ask if I can have it for my coops. What's better than free stuff, right.? lol

So, I'm sure you have probably read about dropping boards in coops and I was just wondering if you used one anad do they really make clean up a lot easier or if it's pretty much just a waste of time. I mean, it looks like it would make at least part of the clean up easier, but, it also looks like it might make the coop smell more than if one were to just use a decent quality floor covering. I'm on the fence about it and thought I'd ask you, of course. lol

Okay, enough pestering you. Have a wonderful day.

Happily Here,
Jodi

 

[chooks4life]

Interesting about the coffee grounds, I haven't heard of them being used for that. It makes sense, there is a lot of medicinal benefit to coffee that we're still learning about, like preventing and reversing fatty liver disease and helping adjust response to stress hormones/cortisol so it's better managed. Being deodorizing is one aspect of it but there are many more which science is still on the fence about, but I drink a lot of coffee and so does one family member with serious illness and we're both much better off for it, as currently 'inexplicable' as that is to modern science.

There are some accepted studies supporting coffee for health reasons, but overall it's still considered one of the bad guys by health experts, lol. One thing to be aware of: if it's a high-quality roast, there will be significant natural oils and nutrition levels even in the used grounds, and everything will eat it. Sheep, horses, poultry, dogs, etc. Not a problem usually, but it can possibly lead to poultry who over-indulge laying eggs with weak shells due to the calcium it takes. And you may get some hyper addicts bouncing around, lol. But generally they won't eat it all the time. My sheep likes a half-kilo of used coffee grounds every few days. I don't usually let the animals get them, but the dog got them after I put them in the compost heap the other day, just ate the whole lot, and yes, bounced around the rest of that day. Gleefully.

Regarding poop boards, I don't use them. I ended up utilizing the deep litter composting method because the more often I cleaned the coops the more often the birds were a little under the weather, and the more often the coops stank. It got as reliable as being guaranteed that within a day or so of me cleaning the coop, there was a peak wherein the smell was worse and the birds looked a bit sick.

Around this time, I also read about the deep litter method, immediately implemented it, and that was the last time I've seen the whole flock look 'off'. It's also the last time the coops stank.

I read studies on poultry health comparing deep-litter methods and clean-coop methods, and they found it was actually harmful to them to live in a frequently sterilized or overcleaned environment and that made sense, because it's coddling the immune system. This doesn't mean they should live in muck, but after all the forest floor permanently supports a lot of animals and is continually subject to feces --- but doesn't stink; it makes sense that the fault is with the soil's health if it does. Some people use severe antibiotic chemicals every single week on their coops, one can only wonder what 'super-bugs' they're breeding out of normal bacteria etc... Hope they stay in domesticity and do not return to their natural habitat, that's for sure.

I altered the method to suit my area --- very high rainfall, high humidity, tropical, and pre-used ground which was probably more feces than anything else. I think one thing that helped was that I had, before getting poultry, looked after an injured bush turkey in the main coop, and to help make it feel like it was still in its wild environment, we had brought in a good few cubic feet of forest mulch. The microorganisms from that I believe helped culture the floor area, and after that all I did was add hydrated agricultural lime to help break down the poop.

Basically what I initially did was remove a few inches of the stinky top layer from my often-cleaned coop floors, lime it thoroughly, chuck some forest floor 'topping' down, and let it be, adding lime every now and then until I was down to liming once or twice a year. The first month was the most frequent time as the soil changed composition.

To give some measurements, the coops were about 5 meters long by 4 wide and housed an average of 100 chickens and around 10 turkeys at any given time, year in, year out, for years after I implemented the deep litter method. Sometimes there would be a mild odor, not a stench by any means though, and then I'd just sprinkle some more lime, chucking handfuls around in a sifting manner so it sprinkled everywhere, but unlike when I was cleaning the coop regularly, it never stank again.

For a few reasons, I often used alfalfa hay for their nests; they'd eat it, and it wouldn't go moldy as quickly as other hays (being somewhat still alive), and because what with it being a premium feed, the sometimes unscrupulous sellers would take extra care that it wasn't dangerous to animals whereas other hays were stored in the rain, in puddles, etc and would always be moldy and in the humid tropics that was a huge concern to me. When I replaced the hay I'd just chuck the old stuff on the floor, and sometimes this would hot up in the floor and then we'd take it out and use it in the garden, because I was worried about it combusting, it was that hot underfoot, lol!

But that was just one lesson, thankfully learned without harm... After that I didn't dump clumps of nesting hay, I spread it, and left it in the coop. Once the deep litter was established, the only reason we removed any was for our garden, and to 'inoculate' other coops and get them 'started'. It worked wonderfully. Poops were actively digested rapidly by the floor, with no stink, no mud despite the amount of birds, it just looked like fine and healthy soil, and the poultry remained vibrantly healthy. This worked even through the monsoon and serious flooding for months at a time.

It may or may not have anything to do with it, but the forest I took that litter from supported a massive combined population of feral dogs, feral pigs, and all manner of other animals crammed into the lone remnant patch of forest sitting in the midst of cleared farmlands. There was a colony of up to 150 000 fruitbats of a few species, a feral dog pack who had over 40 pups at one point, both razorback and spotted feral domestic swine families, and of course hundreds of bush turkeys. That was all in only about 25 acres of forest. I imagine it's possible that the floor microorganisms may have been a bit tougher than most, to retain such freshness under that continual assault of feces.

A lot of people will tell you the deep litter composting doesn't work, and I believe it doesn't for some people, but it worked like a charm for me and I've seen it work for people who didn't even know they were doing it, even in suburbia. I didn't strictly follow the book method. I basically just applied the idea of initial disinfecting using harmless natural agents to put the 'bad' bacteria etc on the back foot, so to speak, then let it build up and compost itself, for which it needs healthy micro-organisms, bacteria and fungi etc, best supplied from the places where they've been 'winning' the fight against sickness and stink for millennia: the forest/jungle floors.

I did it in a really offhand manner, wish I'd taken notes, I think I may have initially watered the lime through and spread hay on top -- if I recall correctly I did that a few times over the first month or months. Anyway, I just reacted to the stink of the bacteria, didn't follow some precise method, lol!

I hope this helps. It is a bit random.

Best wishes with your journey to health and being a flockmaster.