Thanks GrayDragon- I was going to attempt a reply, but got overwhelmed by all the animosity
Inventions To Thank Pagans For
- Thread starter deb1
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- #153
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*Stares blankly* Santa Claus is based on the actual Saint Nick, but was popularized in the mid-1800's by an atheist.
Actually, much of the Saint Nick 'mythos' is based in large part on Odin.
I think that you are both correct. There was a Saint Nick. He was a fiesty man who did good works. But the commercialized concept of Santa Claus is not at all like him. Saint Nicolas was from Turkey. I doubt that he ran around in a red, fur suit giving out toys just because some kids were good. He lived during a violent time period and there are stories of him helping the poor, but not giving toys to random children. I don't know a lot about Odin but it makes sense that other cultural traditions got mixed in with Santa Clause.
*Stares blankly* Santa Claus is based on the actual Saint Nick, but was popularized in the mid-1800's by an atheist.
Actually, much of the Saint Nick 'mythos' is based in large part on Odin.
I think that you are both correct. There was a Saint Nick. He was a fiesty man who did good works. But the commercialized concept of Santa Claus is not at all like him. Saint Nicolas was from Turkey. I doubt that he ran around in a red, fur suit giving out toys just because some kids were good. He lived during a violent time period and there are stories of him helping the poor, but not giving toys to random children. I don't know a lot about Odin but it makes sense that other cultural traditions got mixed in with Santa Clause.
Quote:
Actually, much of the Saint Nick 'mythos' is based in large part on Odin.
I think that you are both correct. There was a Saint Nick. He was a fiesty man who did good works. But the commercialized concept of Santa Claus is not at all like him. Saint Nicolas was from Turkey. I doubt that he ran around in a red, fur suit giving out toys just because some kids were good. He lived during a violent time period and there are stories of him helping the poor, but not giving toys to random children. I don't know a lot about Odin but it makes sense that other cultural traditions got mixed in with Santa Clause.
SAY WHAT!? What are you, a Pagan?
Actually, much of the Saint Nick 'mythos' is based in large part on Odin.
I think that you are both correct. There was a Saint Nick. He was a fiesty man who did good works. But the commercialized concept of Santa Claus is not at all like him. Saint Nicolas was from Turkey. I doubt that he ran around in a red, fur suit giving out toys just because some kids were good. He lived during a violent time period and there are stories of him helping the poor, but not giving toys to random children. I don't know a lot about Odin but it makes sense that other cultural traditions got mixed in with Santa Clause.
SAY WHAT!? What are you, a Pagan?
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- Thread starter
- #155
Quote:
I think that you are both correct. There was a Saint Nick. He was a fiesty man who did good works. But the commercialized concept of Santa Claus is not at all like him. Saint Nicolas was from Turkey. I doubt that he ran around in a red, fur suit giving out toys just because some kids were good. He lived during a violent time period and there are stories of him helping the poor, but not giving toys to random children. I don't know a lot about Odin but it makes sense that other cultural traditions got mixed in with Santa Clause.
SAY WHAT!? What are you, a Pagan? https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/9574_boy_sad.gif
No, I think that I might be Scrooge.
I think that you are both correct. There was a Saint Nick. He was a fiesty man who did good works. But the commercialized concept of Santa Claus is not at all like him. Saint Nicolas was from Turkey. I doubt that he ran around in a red, fur suit giving out toys just because some kids were good. He lived during a violent time period and there are stories of him helping the poor, but not giving toys to random children. I don't know a lot about Odin but it makes sense that other cultural traditions got mixed in with Santa Clause.
SAY WHAT!? What are you, a Pagan? https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/9574_boy_sad.gif
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mom'sfolly :
Not to start a religious war but at the same time the Aztecs were offering sacrifices to their gods, Christians in Europe were putting thousands of non-believers to torture and death. Witch burnings in Europe reached the hundreds of thousands. When you start comparing killings for religous reasons, you lose; no-one wins this evil game.
Bureaucracy can drive you crazy, but it also runs everything. China had the first civil service exams, along with the idea that people should be advanced by merit, not birthright.
The wheel has been found in Aztec and Incan toys, they just didn't use it for much else.
It's hard to know what American cultures might have offered to the world. They were pretty effectively wiped out with 90-99% of the pre-Columbian population dying from imported diseases.
Additionally, the Chinese, Indians and Arabic world used the compass for navagation before 1100 a.d.
Back to the idea of this thread....
Pagans invented ocean going vessels.
*gag!* *cough* *cough* Hundreds of thousands? You have got to be kidding me. Yes, I will admit that Christians have done shameful things in the past, but the claim that witch burnings numbered in the "hundreds of thousands" is absolutely ludicrous. Also, I would like to point out that the killings that did take place are not at all consistent with the Bible, whereas the Aztecs' disgusting tradition of human sacrifice was demanded by their beliefs. Also, the Aztecs ATE the sacrificed victims. As for bureaucracy, it stops things from getting done. Look at every despotic regime in the last two millenia. Every single one was accompanied by a massive bureaucracy.
And yes, back to the original idea of this thread...
Warfare
Human sacrifice
Slavery
Bureaucracy
State-worship
I am done with this thread. I would have continued posting, but seeing that folks will resort to such absurd ideas has convinced me that it is useless. However, I am impressed that no one has called me any names.
Not to start a religious war but at the same time the Aztecs were offering sacrifices to their gods, Christians in Europe were putting thousands of non-believers to torture and death. Witch burnings in Europe reached the hundreds of thousands. When you start comparing killings for religous reasons, you lose; no-one wins this evil game.
Bureaucracy can drive you crazy, but it also runs everything. China had the first civil service exams, along with the idea that people should be advanced by merit, not birthright.
The wheel has been found in Aztec and Incan toys, they just didn't use it for much else.
It's hard to know what American cultures might have offered to the world. They were pretty effectively wiped out with 90-99% of the pre-Columbian population dying from imported diseases.
Additionally, the Chinese, Indians and Arabic world used the compass for navagation before 1100 a.d.
Back to the idea of this thread....
Pagans invented ocean going vessels.
*gag!* *cough* *cough* Hundreds of thousands? You have got to be kidding me. Yes, I will admit that Christians have done shameful things in the past, but the claim that witch burnings numbered in the "hundreds of thousands" is absolutely ludicrous. Also, I would like to point out that the killings that did take place are not at all consistent with the Bible, whereas the Aztecs' disgusting tradition of human sacrifice was demanded by their beliefs. Also, the Aztecs ATE the sacrificed victims. As for bureaucracy, it stops things from getting done. Look at every despotic regime in the last two millenia. Every single one was accompanied by a massive bureaucracy.
And yes, back to the original idea of this thread...
Warfare
Human sacrifice
Slavery
Bureaucracy
State-worship
I am done with this thread. I would have continued posting, but seeing that folks will resort to such absurd ideas has convinced me that it is useless. However, I am impressed that no one has called me any names.
Writing: came about in many pagan cultures over time
domestication of the Chicken!!!!!
domestication of the Chicken!!!!!
Quote:
How about this notion: How about it's not an "either/or" proposition. Most of the major inventions and discoveries were made in various forms at various times all over the world. No one place "cornered the market" so to speak. Instead all over the world we built on each other's discoveries and ideas and improved/perfected them. That still holds true today, BTW. Genius is not confined or limited to one geographic locale or political/religious affiliation, but rather springs up in all four corners of the planet--probably because on a subatomic particle level, we are all related. After all "matter can neither be created nor destroyed." What was here in the beginning is here now and will still be here eons from now. The universe just endlessly recycles everything--including us. Which means in the abstract we all share the same makeup, so of course we share the same inventiveness and creativity.
JMO anyhow.
Rusty
Obviously I botched the placement of my post.
Einstein's, E=mc² equation works very well to describe the relationship between matter and energy, you are correct in that matter can't be destroyed once is has been created. The fundamental question is how it got here in the first place, the "beginning" part. A need to analyze a situation has in a large part led me to faith. The point is either we attribute the matter in the "beginning" to an intelligent creator, the universe as some type of anonymous creative mechanism behind door number 3, or that all matter has managed through some type of mystery to organize itself in an amazingly orderly manner.
How exactly does the universe endlessly recycle anything at all? In other words, how does the universe know what to do and in what order...ut oh gotta go the soup is boiling over.
How about this notion: How about it's not an "either/or" proposition. Most of the major inventions and discoveries were made in various forms at various times all over the world. No one place "cornered the market" so to speak. Instead all over the world we built on each other's discoveries and ideas and improved/perfected them. That still holds true today, BTW. Genius is not confined or limited to one geographic locale or political/religious affiliation, but rather springs up in all four corners of the planet--probably because on a subatomic particle level, we are all related. After all "matter can neither be created nor destroyed." What was here in the beginning is here now and will still be here eons from now. The universe just endlessly recycles everything--including us. Which means in the abstract we all share the same makeup, so of course we share the same inventiveness and creativity.
JMO anyhow.
Rusty
Obviously I botched the placement of my post.
Einstein's, E=mc² equation works very well to describe the relationship between matter and energy, you are correct in that matter can't be destroyed once is has been created. The fundamental question is how it got here in the first place, the "beginning" part. A need to analyze a situation has in a large part led me to faith. The point is either we attribute the matter in the "beginning" to an intelligent creator, the universe as some type of anonymous creative mechanism behind door number 3, or that all matter has managed through some type of mystery to organize itself in an amazingly orderly manner.
How exactly does the universe endlessly recycle anything at all? In other words, how does the universe know what to do and in what order...ut oh gotta go the soup is boiling over.
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How did you do that? I didn't write anything about matter and the universe
You guys have been doing a good job! Really! Most people are trying to learn and are willing - above all else- to admit that what we know is that we do not know it all.
No matter how we slice and dice it, no matter how many books you swear you have read they were all written by people. And people have agendas and preconceived ideas and are based in the time in which they live. So, it is all up for grabs. We cannot even agree on what happened in the ole US of A during the 60s for heaven sake - no way we can agree on what ancient people did let alone WHY.... I recently saw and explanation of a roman object as being a water vending machine! Brand new way of looking at an object that had been in a museum for years. Are they right - this time?? Who knows.
BTW Darwin, if he ever used it in writing at all borrowed the phrase from one of his closest friends - Herbert Spencer. Spencer took Darwin's idea and applied it to societies. He was a big believer that all societies were essentially meritocracies and those who were at the top wre there because they were better than those at the bottom. There are hundreds of letters between the two of them. Spencer used the term in letters and print years before Darwin published his work. But, he had spent years thinking about it and conducting experiments. End result is that both men influenced each other's thinking and both men's thinking have had long term repercussions for us today........
Isn't that what we are all doing on here? Bouncing around ideas, influencing each other's thinking. That is what I love about this board you get to talk to people you'd never get to talk to in the "real" world.
No matter how we slice and dice it, no matter how many books you swear you have read they were all written by people. And people have agendas and preconceived ideas and are based in the time in which they live. So, it is all up for grabs. We cannot even agree on what happened in the ole US of A during the 60s for heaven sake - no way we can agree on what ancient people did let alone WHY.... I recently saw and explanation of a roman object as being a water vending machine! Brand new way of looking at an object that had been in a museum for years. Are they right - this time?? Who knows.
BTW Darwin, if he ever used it in writing at all borrowed the phrase from one of his closest friends - Herbert Spencer. Spencer took Darwin's idea and applied it to societies. He was a big believer that all societies were essentially meritocracies and those who were at the top wre there because they were better than those at the bottom. There are hundreds of letters between the two of them. Spencer used the term in letters and print years before Darwin published his work. But, he had spent years thinking about it and conducting experiments. End result is that both men influenced each other's thinking and both men's thinking have had long term repercussions for us today........
Isn't that what we are all doing on here? Bouncing around ideas, influencing each other's thinking. That is what I love about this board you get to talk to people you'd never get to talk to in the "real" world.
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