hair dye was egypt (henna) as was makeup and contraceptives.
Inventions To Thank Pagans For
- Thread starter deb1
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Thank you! That explains perfectly why RIGHT AFTER the fall of Rome (read: oppressive regime) there was a massive spurt of invention! Christian Europe developed (during your "dark ages!") the following: Advanced crop rotation; the compass, developed around the same time as "advanced" China, and was actually used in navigation, unlike in "advanced" China; the first heavy cavalry; guns and cannons; the "round ship", a huge improvement over the primitive galley, contributing greatly to the astounding naval defeat of the Turks; true capitalism and banking, which contributed to a somewhat humorous situation where monastaries began to resemble modern companies and banks; eyeglasses; the clock; better harnesses allowing horses to begin replacing oxen in farming, allowing a boom in farm productivity; and they were the first to really harness hydropower and wind power.
Meanwhile, in "advanced" Meso-America, the Mayans were making human sacrifices and wiping themselves out through war and what we refer to as "unsustainable" farming practices; the Aztecs were making human sacrifices in a downright cruel way and EATING them; and to top it off, none of these "advanced" Native Americans even used the most basic of inventions, the wheel! What were the Muslim nations doing? Springboarding off of Greco-Roman ideas, but even they began to stagnate while Christian Europe surged ahead. Did I mention that they banned public clocks because they would "secularize time?" I must admit, however, that I really like their architecture. China and India more advanced than Europe? Of course, that's why India became a British colony. As for China, they invented gunpowder; Europe then invented the gun. China and Europe developed the compass at roughly the same time; Europe improved their design and added sights so that sailors could determine their exact heading while sailing, but the Chinese were content to use the compass for religious purposes only. I'd like to know what your definition of "advanced" is. In everything that mattered at that time, Europe was way ahead of the rest of the world, which was downright backwards in comparison.
I'm going to leave this thread due to the high risk of starting a gigantic debate and getting it locked, but I will recommend an excellent book on the subject. The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark. On a scale of 1-10, it gets a 10 1/2.
actually, native agricultural practices among many tribes were advanced. Famine was far less likely in certain parts of the Americas, advanced methods of crop rotation, fertilization, composting, and companion planting were practice din a sustainable method.
Europeans often worked land until it was "used up" as they said. There was a wider range of domesticated plants among the Americas than all of Europe, and most native crops could and still do produce far more food per ace than European crops. It is why corn has become a predominant food and energy source in the world.
In fact now, 60 percent of the world's agriculture comes form native american plants, and much of the methods we use today like certain aspects of companion planting and crop rotations, and methods of what fertilize to use for what problem, is from Native tribes.
oh and The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark is a very biased book. I looked it up, read several reviews, and right off the bat I came across as unbelievably one sided to most of the reviewers, some also pointed out some things he got wrong, and some even assert he undercut his own thesis.
Meanwhile, in "advanced" Meso-America, the Mayans were making human sacrifices and wiping themselves out through war and what we refer to as "unsustainable" farming practices; the Aztecs were making human sacrifices in a downright cruel way and EATING them; and to top it off, none of these "advanced" Native Americans even used the most basic of inventions, the wheel! What were the Muslim nations doing? Springboarding off of Greco-Roman ideas, but even they began to stagnate while Christian Europe surged ahead. Did I mention that they banned public clocks because they would "secularize time?" I must admit, however, that I really like their architecture. China and India more advanced than Europe? Of course, that's why India became a British colony. As for China, they invented gunpowder; Europe then invented the gun. China and Europe developed the compass at roughly the same time; Europe improved their design and added sights so that sailors could determine their exact heading while sailing, but the Chinese were content to use the compass for religious purposes only. I'd like to know what your definition of "advanced" is. In everything that mattered at that time, Europe was way ahead of the rest of the world, which was downright backwards in comparison.
I'm going to leave this thread due to the high risk of starting a gigantic debate and getting it locked, but I will recommend an excellent book on the subject. The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark. On a scale of 1-10, it gets a 10 1/2.
actually, native agricultural practices among many tribes were advanced. Famine was far less likely in certain parts of the Americas, advanced methods of crop rotation, fertilization, composting, and companion planting were practice din a sustainable method.
Europeans often worked land until it was "used up" as they said. There was a wider range of domesticated plants among the Americas than all of Europe, and most native crops could and still do produce far more food per ace than European crops. It is why corn has become a predominant food and energy source in the world.
In fact now, 60 percent of the world's agriculture comes form native american plants, and much of the methods we use today like certain aspects of companion planting and crop rotations, and methods of what fertilize to use for what problem, is from Native tribes.
oh and The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark is a very biased book. I looked it up, read several reviews, and right off the bat I came across as unbelievably one sided to most of the reviewers, some also pointed out some things he got wrong, and some even assert he undercut his own thesis.
mom'sfolly :
Not to start a religious war but at the same time the Aztecs were offering sacrifices to their gods, Christians in Europe were putting thousands of non-believers to torture and death. Witch burnings in Europe reached the hundreds of thousands. When you start comparing killings for religous reasons, you lose; no-one wins this evil game.
Bureaucracy can drive you crazy, but it also runs everything. China had the first civil service exams, along with the idea that people should be advanced by merit, not birthright.
The wheel has been found in Aztec and Incan toys, they just didn't use it for much else.
It's hard to know what American cultures might have offered to the world. They were pretty effectively wiped out with 90-99% of the pre-Columbian population dying from imported diseases.
Additionally, the Chinese, Indians and Arabic world used the compass for navagation before 1100 a.d.
Back to the idea of this thread....
Pagans invented ocean going vessels.
true, some tribes did have the wheel but it was largely unneeded, and frankly, it was a burden in their system. Just because they didn't use the wheel much doesn't mean the natives of america where somehow inferior. they concentrated their time on other advancements.
Not to start a religious war but at the same time the Aztecs were offering sacrifices to their gods, Christians in Europe were putting thousands of non-believers to torture and death. Witch burnings in Europe reached the hundreds of thousands. When you start comparing killings for religous reasons, you lose; no-one wins this evil game.
Bureaucracy can drive you crazy, but it also runs everything. China had the first civil service exams, along with the idea that people should be advanced by merit, not birthright.
The wheel has been found in Aztec and Incan toys, they just didn't use it for much else.
It's hard to know what American cultures might have offered to the world. They were pretty effectively wiped out with 90-99% of the pre-Columbian population dying from imported diseases.
Additionally, the Chinese, Indians and Arabic world used the compass for navagation before 1100 a.d.
Back to the idea of this thread....
Pagans invented ocean going vessels.
true, some tribes did have the wheel but it was largely unneeded, and frankly, it was a burden in their system. Just because they didn't use the wheel much doesn't mean the natives of america where somehow inferior. they concentrated their time on other advancements.
The Egyptians contributed alot, like embalming, colors and metal work, dental work and not to mention engineering marvels.
Quote:
Thank you! That explains perfectly why RIGHT AFTER the fall of Rome (read: oppressive regime) there was a massive spurt of invention! Christian Europe developed (during your "dark ages!") the following: Advanced crop rotation; the compass, developed around the same time as "advanced" China, and was actually used in navigation, unlike in "advanced" China; the first heavy cavalry; guns and cannons; the "round ship", a huge improvement over the primitive galley, contributing greatly to the astounding naval defeat of the Turks; true capitalism and banking, which contributed to a somewhat humorous situation where monastaries began to resemble modern companies and banks; eyeglasses; the clock; better harnesses allowing horses to begin replacing oxen in farming, allowing a boom in farm productivity; and they were the first to really harness hydropower and wind power.
Meanwhile, in "advanced" Meso-America, the Mayans were making human sacrifices and wiping themselves out through war and what we refer to as "unsustainable" farming practices; the Aztecs were making human sacrifices in a downright cruel way and EATING them; and to top it off, none of these "advanced" Native Americans even used the most basic of inventions, the wheel! What were the Muslim nations doing? Springboarding off of Greco-Roman ideas, but even they began to stagnate while Christian Europe surged ahead. Did I mention that they banned public clocks because they would "secularize time?" I must admit, however, that I really like their architecture. China and India more advanced than Europe? Of course, that's why India became a British colony. As for China, they invented gunpowder; Europe then invented the gun. China and Europe developed the compass at roughly the same time; Europe improved their design and added sights so that sailors could determine their exact heading while sailing, but the Chinese were content to use the compass for religious purposes only. I'd like to know what your definition of "advanced" is. In everything that mattered at that time, Europe was way ahead of the rest of the world, which was downright backwards in comparison.
I'm going to leave this thread due to the high risk of starting a gigantic debate and getting it locked, but I will recommend an excellent book on the subject. The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark. On a scale of 1-10, it gets a 10 1/2.
actually, native agricultural practices among many tribes were advanced. Famine was far less likely in certain parts of the Americas, advanced methods of crop rotation, fertilization, composting, and companion planting were practice din a sustainable method.
Europeans often worked land until it was "used up" as they said. There was a wider range of domesticated plants among the Americas than all of Europe, and most native crops could and still do produce far more food per ace than European crops. It is why corn has become a predominant food and energy source in the world.
In fact now, 60 percent of the world's agriculture comes form native american plants, and much of the methods we use today like certain aspects of companion planting and crop rotations, and methods of what fertilize to use for what problem, is from Native tribes.
oh and The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark is a very biased book. I looked it up, read several reviews, and right off the bat I came across as unbelievably one sided to most of the reviewers, some also pointed out some things he got wrong, and some even assert he undercut his own thesis.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in "advanced" Meso-America, the Mayans were making human sacrifices and wiping themselves out through war and what we refer to as "unsustainable" farming practices; the Aztecs were making human sacrifices in a downright cruel way and EATING them; and to top it off, none of these "advanced" Native Americans even used the most basic of inventions, the wheel! What were the Muslim nations doing? Springboarding off of Greco-Roman ideas, but even they began to stagnate while Christian Europe surged ahead. Did I mention that they banned public clocks because they would "secularize time?" I must admit, however, that I really like their architecture. China and India more advanced than Europe? Of course, that's why India became a British colony. As for China, they invented gunpowder; Europe then invented the gun. China and Europe developed the compass at roughly the same time; Europe improved their design and added sights so that sailors could determine their exact heading while sailing, but the Chinese were content to use the compass for religious purposes only. I'd like to know what your definition of "advanced" is. In everything that mattered at that time, Europe was way ahead of the rest of the world, which was downright backwards in comparison.
I'm going to leave this thread due to the high risk of starting a gigantic debate and getting it locked, but I will recommend an excellent book on the subject. The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark. On a scale of 1-10, it gets a 10 1/2.
actually, native agricultural practices among many tribes were advanced. Famine was far less likely in certain parts of the Americas, advanced methods of crop rotation, fertilization, composting, and companion planting were practice din a sustainable method.
Europeans often worked land until it was "used up" as they said. There was a wider range of domesticated plants among the Americas than all of Europe, and most native crops could and still do produce far more food per ace than European crops. It is why corn has become a predominant food and energy source in the world.
In fact now, 60 percent of the world's agriculture comes form native american plants, and much of the methods we use today like certain aspects of companion planting and crop rotations, and methods of what fertilize to use for what problem, is from Native tribes.
oh and The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark is a very biased book. I looked it up, read several reviews, and right off the bat I came across as unbelievably one sided to most of the reviewers, some also pointed out some things he got wrong, and some even assert he undercut his own thesis.
Wasn't everyone a pagan until Abram became Abraham?
I have WHAT in my yard? :
You guys have been doing a good job! Really! Most people are trying to learn and are willing - above all else- to admit that what we know is that we do not know it all.
No matter how we slice and dice it, no matter how many books you swear you have read they were all written by people. And people have agendas and preconceived ideas and are based in the time in which they live. So, it is all up for grabs. We cannot even agree on what happened in the ole US of A during the 60s for heaven sake - no way we can agree on what ancient people did let alone WHY.... I recently saw and explanation of a roman object as being a water vending machine! Brand new way of looking at an object that had been in a museum for years. Are they right - this time?? Who knows.
BTW Darwin, if he ever used it in writing at all borrowed the phrase from one of his closest friends - Herbert Spencer. Spencer took Darwin's idea and applied it to societies. He was a big believer that all societies were essentially meritocracies and those who were at the top wre there because they were better than those at the bottom. There are hundreds of letters between the two of them. Spencer used the term in letters and print years before Darwin published his work. But, he had spent years thinking about it and conducting experiments. End result is that both men influenced each other's thinking and both men's thinking have had long term repercussions for us today........
Isn't that what we are all doing on here? Bouncing around ideas, influencing each other's thinking. That is what I love about this board you get to talk to people you'd never get to talk to in the "real" world.
well said
You guys have been doing a good job! Really! Most people are trying to learn and are willing - above all else- to admit that what we know is that we do not know it all.
No matter how we slice and dice it, no matter how many books you swear you have read they were all written by people. And people have agendas and preconceived ideas and are based in the time in which they live. So, it is all up for grabs. We cannot even agree on what happened in the ole US of A during the 60s for heaven sake - no way we can agree on what ancient people did let alone WHY.... I recently saw and explanation of a roman object as being a water vending machine! Brand new way of looking at an object that had been in a museum for years. Are they right - this time?? Who knows.
BTW Darwin, if he ever used it in writing at all borrowed the phrase from one of his closest friends - Herbert Spencer. Spencer took Darwin's idea and applied it to societies. He was a big believer that all societies were essentially meritocracies and those who were at the top wre there because they were better than those at the bottom. There are hundreds of letters between the two of them. Spencer used the term in letters and print years before Darwin published his work. But, he had spent years thinking about it and conducting experiments. End result is that both men influenced each other's thinking and both men's thinking have had long term repercussions for us today........
Isn't that what we are all doing on here? Bouncing around ideas, influencing each other's thinking. That is what I love about this board you get to talk to people you'd never get to talk to in the "real" world.
well said
Quote:
here I thought the Chinese invented guns. that is really neat
here I thought the Chinese invented guns. that is really neat
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