Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[Hurley]

The two genetics books that I have both state that eb is dominant to e+ and it does seem to be the case with what we are seeing in the breeding pens. I hatched out some eggs from Kari which were as follows-

Silver Duckwing Cockerel bred to the older Silver Penciled hens. This yeilded 10 Silver Penciled chicks and only 1 Silver Duckwing chick. If Silver Duckwing was dominant the proportion of SP to SD would have been reverse. When this same cockerel was bred to his Silver Penciled sisters (which Kari and I believe to carry the SD in recessive) I hatched out 9 Silver Penciled and 3 Silver Duckwing which is a case book example if the SD were recessive and each of his sisters carried it in a recessive form.

I have some eggs due to hatch in a week and a half that are a Silver Penciled cockerel on Silver Penciled pullets from Kari. We'll see if any Duckwings crop up from that cross.

Kari- do you have any solid confirmation in the form of having a SD hatch from two SP birds?

SDW x SP would give SP and SDW regardless of order of dominance if one of them is heterozygous.

To be honest, your sample size is too small to make any determination though I agree it skews towards eb dominating e+. However, I've certainly had plenty of markedly skewed results in hatching snakes (19:1, 10:0, etc. with 50/50 odds), raising puppies (8:1 with 50/50 odds), and I'm sure I'll see it in the chickens. If you hatch out silver duckwings from breeding two SP together, that would prove eb dominance over e+ in our breed (with some wiggle room for a rare individual with incomplete dominance, so would like to see more than 1). I know some things can alter the order of dominance or skew appearances/break through.

I am not finding listings of eb being dominant to e+. I have found a reference that states that eb can have incomplete penetrance when combined with e+ in some individuals. The only place I've seen lower case allele listed as dominant to wild type is with wheaten, which has been a difficult gene for them, earning various names from eWh, ey, dominant wheaten, recessive wheaten, etc. Wheaten is known to have various phenotypes depending on combination and I think they're still battling that one out. However, I haven't found much argument over e+ vs. eb.

Lots of nice discussions on the Coop with people instrumental in the research on the subject. Here are a smattering of places listing e^+ before e^b in the dominance order. Will be interested to see how your (all of youse guyses) test crosses turn out. We'll see what happens in my pen. I've got a bunch of Kari's SPs here, 2 cockerels, 5 pullets, along with a couple birchens. If I see SDW pop out before I separate my groups, I'll split them up to test it out, pulling out the birchens first and see if any more are produced.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21528
http://ameraucana.org/forum/index.php?topic=1733.0
http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html
http://www.nsppa.ca/documents/poult...6_OhkA&usg=AFQjCNFazndPdGVpmRguC444vx33JiV8kQ
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf - original work on the E allele and some interesting reading of when they were first segregating E from e+ from eb from ey. Also some nice info on the appearance of heterozygotes of these alleles.
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104780
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...s7jjsg&usg=AFQjCNGKMOh7I81FMyaz3NXsuZvXh9-0lg

 

[Hurley]

I do have a question... This is only my second attempt at hatching eggs. When I candled them a little big ago, right before locking down, I noticed some that weren't as developed as others. All 38 left had movement, so I know they are all alive, but some filled out the entire shell and some still have plenty of room to grow. Is this something I did? Will they possibly pip later than the rest? They were all started at the same time, I just didn't know if this is something I did???

I don't see where this got answered, but forgive me if it already was. I have two thoughts on this. 1) You may be just seeing different positions of the chicks, making it appear that some take up more room than others. 2) You may have variance in your incubator that is allowing some chicks to grow more rapidly than others. If that's the case, these would likely pip later.

I've seen significant variability in appearance at 18 days that goes on to rapidly fill the egg with darkness prior to hatching. It's amazing how much they still grow in those last few days.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

The two genetics books that I have both state that eb is dominant to e+ and it does seem to be the case with what we are seeing in the breeding pens. I hatched out some eggs from Kari which were as follows-

Silver Duckwing Cockerel bred to the older Silver Penciled hens. This yeilded 10 Silver Penciled chicks and only 1 Silver Duckwing chick. If Silver Duckwing was dominant the proportion of SP to SD would have been reverse. When this same cockerel was bred to his Silver Penciled sisters (which Kari and I believe to carry the SD in recessive) I hatched out 9 Silver Penciled and 3 Silver Duckwing which is a case book example if the SD were recessive and each of his sisters carried it in a recessive form.

I have some eggs due to hatch in a week and a half that are a Silver Penciled cockerel on Silver Penciled pullets from Kari. We'll see if any Duckwings crop up from that cross.

Kari- do you have any solid confirmation in the form of having a SD hatch from two SP birds?

SDW x SP would give SP and SDW regardless of order of dominance if one of them is heterozygous.

To be honest, your sample size is too small to make any determination though I agree it skews towards eb dominating e+. However, I've certainly had plenty of markedly skewed results in hatching snakes (19:1, 10:0, etc. with 50/50 odds), raising puppies (8:1 with 50/50 odds), and I'm sure I'll see it in the chickens. If you hatch out silver duckwings from breeding two SP together, that would prove eb dominance over e+ in our breed (with some wiggle room for a rare individual with incomplete dominance, so would like to see more than 1). I know some things can alter the order of dominance or skew appearances/break through.

I am not finding listings of eb being dominant to e+. I have found a reference that states that eb can have incomplete penetrance when combined with e+ in some individuals. The only place I've seen lower case allele listed as dominant to wild type is with wheaten, which has been a difficult gene for them, earning various names from eWh, ey, dominant wheaten, recessive wheaten, etc. Wheaten is known to have various phenotypes depending on combination and I think they're still battling that one out. However, I haven't found much argument over e+ vs. eb.

Lots of nice discussions on the Coop with people instrumental in the research on the subject. Here are a smattering of places listing e^+ before e^b in the dominance order. Will be interested to see how your (all of youse guyses) test crosses turn out. We'll see what happens in my pen. I've got a bunch of Kari's SPs here, 2 cockerels, 5 pullets, along with a couple birchens. If I see SDW pop out before I separate my groups, I'll split them up to test it out, pulling out the birchens first and see if any more are produced.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21528
http://ameraucana.org/forum/index.php?topic=1733.0
http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html
http://www.nsppa.ca/documents/poult...6_OhkA&usg=AFQjCNFazndPdGVpmRguC444vx33JiV8kQ
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf - original work on the E allele and some interesting reading of when they were first segregating E from e+ from eb from ey. Also some nice info on the appearance of heterozygotes of these alleles.
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104780
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...s7jjsg&usg=AFQjCNGKMOh7I81FMyaz3NXsuZvXh9-0lg

To all this I agree Connie. I do believe that my sample is small. I'm still inclined to believe the eb is dominant in our case, however, I will be the first to say that I'm still learning things. One note in interest, was my book from the 1950's. In it, it describes how technically e+ is dominant to eb, however in most cases the other genes that are "added" to the e locus "base" cause the eb to act in a way that is dominant to e+. I think we have something of this nature happening in our flocks, and only time and test breeding will bring this to a postive determination.

Anyway, great conversation! I just love this stuff! haha

 

[karimw]

There is a conflict with this, because Connie is right e+ should be dominant to eb. However, I haven't seen this color before so the only thing I can assume is that my birchen rooster (ER/e+) crossed with a hen that was a carrier. it could be that it was a birchen hen, but I have had some since I took out all the Birchen hens. I can't swear they were by the new rooster I guess

Now, Curt can attest that I have one or two very dark SP hens. Perhaps they are actually birchens in disguise? Is it possible the chocolate chicks are birchen based? As you can see from the picture below I have had some odd colored chicks. Now at this point I was not paying much attention to the brown ones as I was selecting more for Birchen. The one at 8 o'clock was an Iowa Blue,but what base gene? Could the chocolate color be birchen based with modifiers for the heavy lacing? Then they could hide the e+ gene in my supposedly SP flocks. If you are still getting Birchen chicks in the hatches now, that has to be the case. Rex has been out of the pen now since June, and there are no other Birchens in either pen.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I don't see where this got answered, but forgive me if it already was. I have two thoughts on this. 1) You may be just seeing different positions of the chicks, making it appear that some take up more room than others. 2) You may have variance in your incubator that is allowing some chicks to grow more rapidly than others. If that's the case, these would likely pip later.

I've seen significant variability in appearance at 18 days that goes on to rapidly fill the egg with darkness prior to hatching. It's amazing how much they still grow in those last few days.

Right on Connie! I wouldn't be worrying about them iowabluemama. They should be just fine.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

There is a conflict with this, because Connie is right e+ should be dominant to eb. However, I haven't seen this color before so the only thing I can assume is that my birchen rooster (ER/e+) crossed with a hen that was a carrier. it could be that it was a birchen hen, but I have had some since I took out all the Birchen hens. I can't swear they were by the new rooster I guess

Now, Curt can attest that I have one or two very dark SP hens. Perhaps they are actually birchens in disguise? Is it possible the chocolate chicks are birchen based? As you can see from the picture below I have had some odd colored chicks. Now at this point I was not paying much attention to the brown ones as I was selecting more for Birchen. The one at 8 o'clock was an Iowa Blue,but what base gene? Could the chocolate color be birchen based with modifiers for the heavy lacing? Then they could hide the e+ gene in my supposedly SP flocks. If you are still getting Birchen chicks in the hatches now, that has to be the case. Rex has been out of the pen now since June, and there are no other Birchens in either pen.

At this point, I'm still in a toss up with the chocolate chicks. Are they ER with heavy silver penciling modifiers, or are they Silver Penciled with heavy melanizers? Maybe both are happening? These chocolate chicks could end up being nothing more that inbetween "mutts" of the two variations and will in time be something we select away from.....don't know yet. I've got some pics of these chocolate chicks to post hopefully soon for all to see. Only some test breeding will bring this out I think. I am planning on breeding a group of these together and will be curious to see how the offspring manifest in coloration........

 

[Jake Levi]

I really need to see some pics of the colors in the 4 weeks to 8 week ranges.

My chicks from Kari are a broad spectrum of the expected plus a couple that I dont know what to call, but, they are from the last eggs that Kari sent to me, I had five dark Birchen hatch, one died first day, very weak, and have one that is going to the vet next week as she has a leg that needs attention, I am hoping that it can be done. Hopping on one leg, but I dont want her to stay that way, nuther story.

I have two of the SP that were as the new chicks shown. One pullet, one cockeral

Then, I have two dark Birchen that arnt staying all that dark but graying on the chest and lightening to white on the vent, they also have white feathers scattered through the wings and back, but overal lighter verssions of the dark versions. So I am calling them 'light' birchen.

Then there are the two that are almost halfway between everything ! Light chest and belly and neck with dark 'pheasanty' back and wings. When hatched I was calling them chipmunks. These are the lightest of all of them. Conformation and temperament the same on all. If I had to call them something it'd be SDW, but all is subject to smarter minds then mine to call.

So I would like some thoughts /comments on these last two.

 

[Hurley]

In reading through older literature on these alleles, it seems that the solid brown ones should be eb without the pattern influencers. eb (brown)as a base yields a cocoa brown chick. However, eb is very susceptible to influence by other genes, so quickly takes on other looks in combination. I suspect the occasional brown chick we get is when we lose the pattern gene (PG) in that individual.

In the old literature working out allelic E genes, they make mention of brown headed chicks. However, I'll have to look if they noted what they look like as adults.

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf - original work from 1954 - check out the crosses especially listed in Table 2. They list the phenotype of e+eb as "Wild type with speckled head". They list eb/es as "brown head". They call es/es "Speckled head". Their "es" they list as the "speckled headed" gene, with diagrams in the paper of chick pattern and adult feather pattern. The adult feather "speckled head" looks like a sloppy/disorganized partridge/penciling pattern like ours. These sound like our SP chicks/birds, eb + Pg? They also list brown adults (presuming minus the PG) as brown stippled feathers with a speckled head.

They have some images of feathers and make the following written observations:

Chick description for eb (brown) - primarily all brown, back darker than underside, occasional small light brown spots extending up into striped area found in wild type chicks. Dorsolateral striping was suppressed (and sometimes absent).
Hen description for eb (brown) - Dark brown stippled throughout, no salmon-colored breast.

Chick description for ""es""(what they called speckled head) - Variable phenotype, body was similar to wild type, head showed the midline dorsal stripe to be irregular. Spots and streaks noted around the stribe and eye stripe, giving the appearance of spectacles in some.
Hen description for ""es"" (what they called speckled head) - similar to eb but not as darkly stippled.

Wondering if their "speckled heads" were PG mixing with the E locus.

Anyway, I find it interesting to try to dig back and make predictions. We'll see what breeds true. I love trying to prove hypotheses wrong/right. Makes for fun mental gymnastics, too.

Interesting also is that the SDW are not pure wild type, from what I've seen. They don't have the bold, unbroken, non-speckled dorsal midline and eye stripes. They have the broken/spectacled in some, mottled appearance on a yellow background. Will have to look to see what Pg may do to down color in the wild type chick.

Gotta run, but will look back and comment later. Please excuse the random ramblings above, not time to proof and more to think about and say...

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I really need to see some pics of the colors in the 4 weeks to 8 week ranges.

My chicks from Kari are a broad spectrum of the expected plus a couple that I dont know what to call, but, they are from the last eggs that Kari sent to me, I had five dark Birchen hatch, one died first day, very weak, and have one that is going to the vet next week as she has a leg that needs attention, I am hoping that it can be done. Hopping on one leg, but I dont want her to stay that way, nuther story.

I have two of the SP that were as the new chicks shown. One pullet, one cockeral

Then, I have two dark Birchen that arnt staying all that dark but graying on the chest and lightening to white on the vent, they also have white feathers scattered through the wings and back, but overal lighter verssions of the dark versions. So I am calling them 'light' birchen.

Then there are the two that are almost halfway between everything ! Light chest and belly and neck with dark 'pheasanty' back and wings. When hatched I was calling them chipmunks. These are the lightest of all of them. Conformation and temperament the same on all. If I had to call them something it'd be SDW, but all is subject to smarter minds then mine to call.

So I would like some thoughts /comments on these last two.

The best way to get what you're looking for would be to post some pictures. Then we can give them the once over, and tell you what you've got.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Connie-

That's a very intersting site. I'm going to give that reading a real study tonight and see what I can gather from it. I've had all forms of those chick combinations except for chick number A. So, we've definately got a lot of things going on. The trick over time will be to decide what we keep and what we remove from the breed......