Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueMama]

I do have a question... This is only my second attempt at hatching eggs. When I candled them a little big ago, right before locking down, I noticed some that weren't as developed as others. All 38 left had movement, so I know they are all alive, but some filled out the entire shell and some still have plenty of room to grow. Is this something I did? Will they possibly pip later than the rest? They were all started at the same time, I just didn't know if this is something I did???

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I'll try to get some pics of the Penciled Birchen trio that I got from Denny.....

Unfortunately I forgot my camera at Glen's and Dennys!!!!!! I will be connecting with Glen again late this fall and should be able to get some good pics then.

I'm not suggesting we go hog wild with the other variations of coloring on the Iowa Blue, but rather, wanted to inform everyone of what we are seeing and to encourage other breeders to hang on to your odd colored purebreds as we (as a club) don't really know which way we are going to go on this. We wouldn't want to rid our breed of variations and then regret having disposed of them. If anyone has chicks come out like this and don't have a need or interest in them, feel free to reach out about me.

 

[Jake Levi]

Great points Curt,

the gene pool right now is too small to just exclude any that dont fit the standard right now, a good rooster can correct a lot of shortcomings, and color shouldnt be a huge priority right now as far as I am concerned.

'You cant eat color'.

 

[mrandmrschicken]

So we don't know yet what happens when a SP male covers a SDW female?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Yes! If the SP is homozygous (meaning both genes are SP/SP) then all the chicks will be SP, but they will carry a SD recessive (SP/SD). If a SP/SD is crossed to a SD/SD then half the chicks will be SP in color and half will be SD in color.

Hope that wasn't too confusing!

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

What we are still trying to come to an understanding and consensus on is whether the SD hens should have a red breast or not. It would seem that the red breasts should be bred out as the breed is suppose to be a "blue-gray" color from a distance and the red breast definately eats away at that, however some really like the look of the red breast. I think one we have raised up a sizable number of chicks and can see if any hens are produced without the red breasts, then we can start to create a standard for this color type as well..........I do have a feeling however, that we will shy away from the red breasts and encourage hens that are silver on the breasts....

 

[ottbjumper06]

Now you're talking simple Punnet Squares Curt, I can follow that! So, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you put a SD roo over a SD hen, 100% of the chicks would be SD because it's the recessive trait? What kind of dominance is that showing between the three varieties? I should really get that genetics book... Now!

 

[Hurley]

Curt: If the SP is homozygous (meaning both genes are SP/SP) then all the chicks will be SP, but they will carry a SD recessive (SP/SD). If a SP/SD is crossed to a SD/SD then half the chicks will be SP in color and half will be SD in color.


Everything I've read says the wild type e+ (the base of silver duckwing) is dominant to eb (the base of silver penciled / partridge) in the order of E locus dominance.

If that's the case, then wouldn't the F1 of a SP (eb/eb) x SDW (e+/e+) be SDW (presuming the duckwings are homozygous e+)?
If e+ dominantes eb, then they should phenotypically be e+ (SDW).
If the SDW is heterozygous (e+/eb), the cross of SDW (e+/eb) x SP (eb/eb) would give half heterozygous SDW (e+/eb), half SP (eb/eb).

I know Kari had it popping up and thought that was from Rex crossed to a carrier hen. Rex, iirc, is a birchen (ER), which would dominate e+ and would hide it. He (if he were ER/e+) would then produce heterozygous birchens (E/eb) and heterozygous SDW (e+/eb) when bred to a SP hen (eb/eb). He would create 3/4 Birchens and 1/4 SDW if bred to a hemizygous birchen carrying e+ (ER/e+). He should not be able to produce SP chicks, if that were the case, since both ER and e+ dominante eb. Since that's Kari's main cock bird for SPs of that generation which yielded a bunch of birchens and SPs with a small number of SDW, that makes it very unlikely, in my mind, that Rex carries e+. Makes me think her e+ snuck in with a birchen hen. Heterozygous birchen hen (ER/e+) x Rex (ER/eb) would yield birchens (ER/anything) and SDW chicks (e+/eb). That could make a batch of eggs from multiple hens show a bunch of birchen, SPs, and a few SD - these being the result of half the progeny of one hen.

Just thinking out loud, trying to reason it out...

Kari/Curt, can you help me out on what you've produced?

The tester of this would be has a SDW ever been produced from crossing two SP individuals with no chance a birchen snuck in there? Shouldn't be possible, if the order of dominance is as listed:
E, ER, ER- Fay, eWh, e+, eb, es, ebc, ey, eq

So we don't know yet what happens when a SP male covers a SDW female?

Presuming the above to be true,

SP = eb/eb S/S (ignoring the Pg for now)
SDW = e+/e+ S/-

Crossing these two should produce all e+/eb S/S males/ S/s- females.
e+/eb should be a duckwing appearance as e+ is listed as being more dominant than eb.

Crossing these F1s would yield 3/4 SDWs (1/3 e+/e+, 2/3 e+/eb) and 1/4 SPs (eb/eb).


If the SDWs are heterozygous, then the SP x SDW cross would yield 1/2 e+/eb (SDW) and 1/2 eb/eb (SP) in the F1.


I would bet, again, assuming the rule to be true, that Kari's SDW birds are heterozygous e+/eb birds. Breed the pair, and I'd expect 1/4 SP chicks in the offspring, with 3/4 SDW (2/3 of which carry SP).

 

[Jake Levi]

Okay, if, we stay with a SP rooster then eventually we should be producing SPs, all other things being equal, a homozygous SP rooster should get it done. He and his grandsons.

Re the Birchens, I believe that I have some variations, two with white bellys and brown backs, several with black/brown barred bodies, and three of the black with some silver stripping on the necks. Several of these I took for Delaware variations at first, but now I see that they are variations in the IBs. Interesting to watch develop.

Lots to see in our breed, one thing is for sure, I am going to need a homozygous SP rooster for a flock meister.

This is a fascinating thread, you folks always got something interesting to read.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

The two genetics books that I have both state that eb is dominant to e+ and it does seem to be the case with what we are seeing in the breeding pens. I hatched out some eggs from Kari which were as follows-

Silver Duckwing Cockerel bred to the older Silver Penciled hens. This yeilded 10 Silver Penciled chicks and only 1 Silver Duckwing chick. If Silver Duckwing was dominant the proportion of SP to SD would have been reverse. When this same cockerel was bred to his Silver Penciled sisters (which Kari and I believe to carry the SD in recessive) I hatched out 9 Silver Penciled and 3 Silver Duckwing which is a case book example if the SD were recessive and each of his sisters carried it in a recessive form.

I have some eggs due to hatch in a week and a half that are a Silver Penciled cockerel on Silver Penciled pullets from Kari. We'll see if any Duckwings crop up from that cross.

Kari- do you have any solid confirmation in the form of having a SD hatch from two SP birds?